The 2006 NPC Nationals

[cbdetroit]

This contest is one of the biggest pro qualifers around and espeically where plenty of the top Women Bodybuilders and Fitness Women have competed before earning their pro cards.

I've already know some FBBs who maybe competing in this contest, but I want to know from you. Will overall Symmetry and Proportion will rule over Bulky Mass?

If you know of any Women Bodybuilders or Fitness Women who's going to compete in this contest please No Hating or Trash Talking and feel free to HOLLER!! Peace. :dj_spnnin:)

[Scott]

South Carolina will be represented this year in the way of Pam Shealy, Heidi Bagwell, and maybe Jody Coy although i dont really know her. Summer Brooks-Ortegan who won the the Jr USA's as a BB a few years back then switched to figure is back in the bb mix and will be among the LW's competing.

[kimferrell]

elena seiple and debbie laszewski (sp?) in light heavies-i have a feeling they'll be at the top of the class, Jody May -heavies....krissy murrell, not sure who else is going, but it's gonna be great to see how it turns out!

[cbdetroit]

That's cool, I know if Jody competes in the Heavyweights again based on how she looked at the 2005 Nationals and if Kris comes in with the conditioning she had at the Jr. Nationals, then competition is going to be fierce.

And I agree with you on how the Light-Heavyweight class is going to turn out with the return of Elena Seiple & Debi Laszewski.

If Elena comes in with the physique & conditioning that she had at the 2004 Nationals & 2005 USAs or if Debi's physique is on par with how she looked at the 2005 Southern States & Nationals then it's game on.

And I'll also agree with Scott that I'm looking forward to seeing the Carolinas represented at this contest as Pam, Heidi, and Jodi will bring it as well too. If anyone else know of any Women Bodybuilders & Fitness Women who will show up at this contest feel free to Holler!! Peace.:)

[hans]

Whoa! Nationals already? We are still at the USA! ;)

Hans

[gymdiva1222]

:woodstock yep, I'm officially throwing my hat in the ring...finally have some people working with me that I am very happy with and regardless of what my placing is I know they will do everything they can to bring in me the best I've ever looked...so look for me in my LW debut! :D

[cbdetroit]

Whoa! Nationals already? We are still at the USA! ;)

HansLOL not to worry, I'm already over the USAs and I'm ready to get fired up and Motivated at who's competing at the North Americans & the Nationals.

I'm already Happy for Heather Policky winning her pro card ;), but it's time to move on because the REAL Contests arrive this fall. :)

[Eddie]

Sharon: I wish you the best girl. :) I think with your conditioning being a strong suit you can make a good impact in the show and be put on the national map. I know a Top 10 finish would do it for sure.

As far top contenders go, I certainly have Jody May up there to potentially get the division and overall victories. Elena and Debi will be right there as well. Be interesting to see what Karen Tucker does as she looks solid to me.
Also can't forget about Britt Miller and her outstanding potential.

A tough contest to call, but should be another awesome field as usual.

[Jason]

Can't forget about Kristy Hawkins and Nicole Berg with the improvements these ladies keep making each yr!! Should be another great show! And if her road to recovery goes well, maybe Mandy Polk will return to the stage in Miami??

[gymdiva1222]

omg Eddie thank you so much!!! that really means a lot to me :)

[cbdetroit]

Eddie: that's a Good call on Britt Miller, I've totally forgotten about her that's cool if she competes. She looked Beautiful at last years USAs when she won the Middleweight Class.

Jason: you took the words right out of my mouth when you've mentioned those two Beautiful Heroes, Kristy Hawkins & Nicole Berg. I'm looking forward to seeing those Beautiful Ladies at the peak of perfection come contest time.

If things go well both the North Americans & the Nationals should surpass the USAs as a much better show this year.

And if anyone else knows who's going to compete then don't hesitate and HOLLER!!!! Because inquiring minds would like to know, Peace.:dj_spnnin:)

[TomNine]

I don't have many other names to mention but, returning to the Carolina-centric pattern, Christine Brandon plans to return, having recovered from her hamstring injury. She placed in the top five in 2001 and 2004.

[gymdiva1222]

sweet! looks like me, Heidi, Christine, Britt, and maybe Tangela(???) will be representing the Carolinas well!!! :D

[notired412]

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3494/635/1600/baffle.jpg

thx

[notired412]

sorry, first post, not sure how to insert images here

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3494/635/1600/baffle.jpg

[notired412]

arrrrrrrgh

http://www.ftvideo.com/genex/results/06/images/06usa/images/334899.jpg

[kimferrell]

that's chris sabo

[hans]

Ok, the contest report for the USA is now posted. Now we can start talking about Nationals.... ;)

Chris Sabo looked beautiful at the USA, but she won't be doing Nationals. She's probably to take the rest of the year off competing and come back at the USA next year. That's her specialty - disappear for 12 months, then come back and blow everyone away with how different she looks....

Hans

[notired412]

thx, kimferrell

mizz sabo looks excellent, and i dig her hair color too

[Jody May]

Hey everyone!

Thanks for the very sweet compliments! I started THE diet a few weeks ago and am looking better by the day! On track for now, and down to 193, hoping to come in around 167ish. I am sooo excited to go to Miami, have never been there so it should be fun. I am already getting nervous though.

Karen Choate got 5th in Vegas and is planning on Nats as well, if we can keep her away from the OREOS! :)

See ya'll soon!!!!

Jody

[Procarri]

Good luck Jody May! G says you are the one to watch for! Miami is a blast! :banana:

[Gerri]

:sprite10: I plan to be there with the other heavyweights!

[Jody May]

Awwww, Thanks Carri!!! I am soooo excited to see G in arlington in a few weeks!!!!

Jody

[Amanda Dunbar]

Jody,

You were looking great in Vegas. Nationals should be an easy pro card for you. I can't wait to get that phone call again like I did last year with you telling me how you were so happy with how you were looking and had never been in that condition before!!! I expect it again........ :) stay on track girl. Miami is going to be such a blast! Let me know what you end up doing with the hotel situation. Mimi and I have to find a good hotel this time around.

Amanda :)

[IslandGirl]

I'll be rooting for you Sharon!

[gymdiva1222]

I'll be rooting for you Sharon!


:carrot: yea! a fan! ;)

[femalemusclefan]

:woodstock yep, I'm officially throwing my hat in the ring...finally have some people working with me that I am very happy with and regardless of what my placing is I know they will do everything they can to bring in me the best I've ever looked...so look for me in my LW debut! :D

:sprite10: Good Luck on your debut Sharon! :sprite10:

[gymdiva1222]

woo-hoo! thank you! :star:




anyone know of other LWs who will be there this year? Barbara probably...Jamie?


btw, if you're competing and you see me and say hello and I just look at you like a starstruck kid, ignore me...hahahaha, I am still WAY humbled to meet y'all...every one of y'all is a celebrity to me and I see you in life and I'm like woooooooooooow...so um yeah, the short one in the purple or pink with her mouth wide open will be me ;)

[femalemusclefan]

btw, if you're competing and you see me and say hello and I just look at you like a starstruck kid, ignore me...hahahaha, I am still WAY humbled to meet y'all...every one of y'all is a celebrity to me and I see you in life and I'm like woooooooooooow...so um yeah, the short one in the purple or pink with her mouth wide open will be me ;)

That's funny, because that's exactly how I would be if I ever get the chance to meet you! Like a kid in a candy shop! :cool:

I can dream, can't I! :)

[grlslifthvy2]

Pam Shealy will be competing as a LW as well....You will be fine girl!! :cheers:

[babydoc]

I will be there competing in the fitness tall class!!! Wish me luck!!! :) :music:

[femalemusclefan]

I will be there competing in the fitness tall class!!! Wish me luck!!! :) :music:

:sprite10: Good Luck! :sprite10:

[cbdetroit]

I'm looking forward to seeing Pam, Heidi and the rest of the Carolina gals compete at the Nationals this Fall as well on FTV/Genex.

I'm also looking forward to seeing if Gene & James are going to do another Wild Webcam because I'm looking forward to seeing the top Women over there as well the following day after the contest.

If anyone else knows of anymore Beautiful Women Bodybuilders & Fitness Women who may compete at the Nationals please feel free to Holler, because "Freaky Vascular" Contest Shape Rules. And inquiring minds would like to know, Peace.:dj_spnnin:)

[ParadiseCup]

I'll be rooting for you Sharon!


and so will I !!!

[cbdetroit]

That's cool folks, Gotta spread the Love. And if anyone else knows who's planning on competing at this contest please feel free to Holler because inquiring minds would like to know.

I know it would be cool to see Kris Murrell, Nicole Berg & Kristy Hawkins in this contest. :)

Plus Vascular Symmetrical Contest Shape Rules and this threads for you, Peace.:dj_spnnin:)

[BigKris]

That's cool folks, Gotta spread the Love. And if anyone else knows who's planning on competing at this contest please feel free to Holler because inquiring minds would like to know.

I know it would be cool to see Kris Murrell, Nicole Berg & Kristy Hawkins in this contest. :)

Plus Vascular Symmetrical Contest Shape Rules and this threads for you, Peace.:dj_spnnin:)

Yo! I'll be there,...with bells on! Thanks for the support!
Kris M

[cbdetroit]

:woot: :1eek: Wait just one moment, is this who I think this is? Kris, is that you? If it is then a big welcome to the forums from your "Motor City" fan. I'm going to be definitely checking FT Videos for sure this November. It's Good to hear from you.:dj_spnnin:)

Christopher Brown
cbdetroit

[cbdetroit]

Now I'm really fired up right now!!!! If anyone else knows of anymore competitiors then feel free to Holler because inquiring minds would like to know.

Plus Vascular Symmetrical Contest Shape Rules and this thread's for you, Peace.:)

[BigKris]

:woot: :1eek: Wait just one moment, is this who I think this is? Kris, is that you? If it is then a big welcome to the forums from your "Motor City" fan. I'm going to be definitely checking FT Videos for sure this November. It's Good to hear from you.:dj_spnnin:)

Christopher Brown
cbdetroit

Hey "Motor City" fan
Yes it's me! You always know how to put a smile on my face! Thanks Chris for all your insight, opinions, and compliments. You make the forum fun!
Big Love
from
BigKris

[cbdetroit]

Hey "Motor City" fan
Yes it's me! You always know how to put a smile on my face! Thanks Chris for all your insight, opinions, and compliments. You make the forum fun!
Big Love
from
BigKrisAWWW You're Welcome Kris Anytime!!!! Like I said the "Motor City" fan is fired up tonight!!!! :D

The IFBB North Americans & the NPC Nationals is where it's at for pro qualifiers this year. It's always Great to hear from you Kris this is going to be your year believe that!! Major Love, Props & Respect to you from your "Motor City" fan. ;)

And anyone else who knows who's competing, holler because inquiring minds would like to know. Plus Vascular Symmetrical Contest Shape rules and this threads for you, Peace.:dj_spnnin:)

Christopher Brown
cbdetroit

[hans]

That's cool folks, Gotta spread the Love. And if anyone else knows who's planning on competing at this contest please feel free to Holler because inquiring minds would like to know.

I know it would be cool to see Kris Murrell, Nicole Berg & Kristy Hawkins in this contest. :)

Plus Vascular Symmetrical Contest Shape Rules and this threads for you, Peace.:dj_spnnin:)

Nicole won't be competing - she's taking some time off right now after doing two shows last year.

Hans

[cbdetroit]

Nicole won't be competing - she's taking some time off right now after doing two shows last year.

HansAWWW No Way. :( :o

Oh well I hope that she'll make a comeback next year so until then I'll have to use Nicole's victories at the 2004 Emerald Cup & Costa Contra as well as her appearance at the 2005 USA's Light-Heavyweight Division as a reference of what's yet to come.

I'll be looking forward to check out Nicole's new & improved package by then.

But in the meantime if anyone knows of anybody who's going to be competing at the 2006 NPC Nationals then please feel free to post photos or HOLLER, because inquiring minds would like to know.

Also Beautiful Symmetrical Vascular Contest Shape rules and this thread's for you, Peace.:dj_spnnin:)

[Gerri]

Hey CB!!!

Nicole and I talked before I headed to the USA's. As it stands now, she's looking at prepping for the 07 USA's. So...you'll just have to settle for my half of the Gerri/Nicole team at the Nationals this year... :D

[Gerri]

Oh..,and Hans!!!! Are we on for dessert this year after the show??? :Popcorn2:

[rpflex]

I'm helping Tera Guzman for the lightweight and Holly Geersen for the lightheavy weight classes. Tera is in great shape now and should just cruise in and I expect Holly to present a bit more streamlined look this year. It should be a fantastic show and I'm loving the thought of a mini vacation in Miami!

[cbdetroit]

Hey CB!!!

Nicole and I talked before I headed to the USA's. As it stands now, she's looking at prepping for the 07 USA's. So...you'll just have to settle for my half of the Gerri/Nicole team at the Nationals this year... :DHey Gerri, that's cool because I know that when Nicole puts her mind to it, She will bring it.

And Gerri I'm looking forward to seeing you at the peak of perfection just like you were at the Arnold Fitness Expo as well as how you've looked at the Masters Nationals.

Oh by the way Gerri, I saw the photo that TomNine took of you from that contest and you'll Look very Beautiful and Sexy. Don't stop what you're doing, because it works. ;)

The "Motor City" fan most definitely LOVES what he sees period!:dj_spnnin :)

Christopher Brown
cbdetroit

[cbdetroit]

I'm helping Tera Guzman for the lightweight and Holly Geersen for the lightheavy weight classes. Tera is in great shape now and should just cruise in and I expect Holly to present a bit more streamlined look this year. It should be a fantastic show and I'm loving the thought of a mini vacation in Miami!This is also cool. :woot:

I was wondering whatever happened to one of my Heroes Holly Geersen because I Loved the way her physique's been improving over the last couple of years. Plus she posesses some of the Best Symmetry & Proportion in the sport.

I wonder if her website is still up & running? Other than that I wish her the Best of Luck in her weight class. She's a Very Beautiful Woman.

And if anyone else knows who's going to be competing at the 2006 NPC Nationals then please feel free to post progression / transformation photos or HOLLER, becuase inquiring minds would like to know.

Also Beautiful Vascualar Symmetrical Contest Shape rules and this thread's for you, peace.:dj_spnnin:)

[hans]

Oh..,and Hans!!!! Are we on for dessert this year after the show??? :Popcorn2:

Hell yeah! Since it's Miami, how about key lime pie and margaritas?

Hans

[Gerri]

Key Lime Pie and Margaritas???? Twist my arm, Hans!!!! I'm all over that! :D
Have you checked out Wet Willies in South Beach? They mix some wicked slurpees (ha ha!) there. Are you game??

[Amanda Dunbar]

I'm helping Tera Guzman for the lightweight and Holly Geersen for the lightheavy weight classes. Tera is in great shape now and should just cruise in and I expect Holly to present a bit more streamlined look this year. It should be a fantastic show and I'm loving the thought of a mini vacation in Miami!

Robin -
Yaaay! I can't wait to see you and Barry!!! I miss you guys! It'll be so nice to be able to finally chat a bit in person. :) I totally forgot you were helping Tera and Holly... Very smart of those girls. They both have an excellent shot at turning pro this year and we all know that you have the winning touch girl! hehe.

Stay strong on your own prep Robin!

Love ya!
Amanda

[tangelamorgan]

Gymdiva,

Thanks for remembering me girlfriend. Unfortunately, I'll just be a spectator this year cheering you and Britt on. Let me know if you need anything, I'm right down the road in Salisbury.

Tangela

[gymdiva1222]

awwww! well thank you! hate that you won't be onstage but you'll make for one hell of a cheerleader! :D


will you be in boone in a few short weeks?

[hans]

12 weeks to go! Everyone's starting their diets about now...

Hans

[Jody May]

Or 5 weeks ago!!! lol!

[hans]

hey Jody! Good to hear you're ahead of the competition! ;)

Hans

[Amanda Dunbar]

Jody,

YOU GO GIRL!!! We can't wait to see you! Stay on that diet... no cheats. ;)

See you soon!

Amanda

[cbdetroit]

That's cool and if anyone else knows of anyone who will be competing at The 2006 NPC Nationals this fall then please feel free to show photos and or HOLLER because inquiring minds would like to know.;)

Other than that Beautiful Vascular Symmetrical Contest Shape Rules Period and this thread's for you, Peace.:dj_spnnin:)

[cbdetroit]

Wow!!!! I've just recently seen the results of the 2006 Europa Show and I've noticed that there's some mixed reactions on the final results.

But other than that I'm ready to check out to find out which anyone of the Next Generation of Beautiful Women Bodybuilders & Fitness Women who will compete at this pretigous contest this fall.

If anyone else knows who will compete then, you know what to do.;)

Other than that Beautiful Vascular Symmetrical Contest Shape Rules, and this thread's for you, Peace.:)

[hans]

Britt Miller has a pic of her at 11 weeks out from Nationals in her blog (http://brittmiller.blogspot.com/). Looks to me like she's brought out her quad sweep since the last time she competed (USA's in 2005).

It's going to be interesting to see her in the light-heavies alongside Elena, Debi L and Kristy Hawkins....

Hans

[Amanda Dunbar]

Britt Miller has a pic of her at 11 weeks out from Nationals in her blog (http://brittmiller.blogspot.com/). Looks to me like she's brought out her quad sweep since the last time she competed (USA's in 2005).

It's going to be interesting to see her in the light-heavies alongside Elena, Debi L and Kristy Hawkins....

Hans

And don't forget Angie Salvagno our current USA LHW winner. :)

Amanda

[cbdetroit]

I'm looking forward to check out the coverage of that contest as well.

No doubt that this contest along with the IFBB North Americans as well as the IFBB Worlds will definitely peak the interest of seeing the New Generation of Women Bodybuilders and Fitness Women that's going to take the sport to Another level.:)

[CalJoe]

And don't forget Angie Salvagno our current USA LHW winner. :)

Amanda
Thanks for the kind words about Angie. ;)

[Scott]

Angie is lookin fine and dandy too! :woot:

[Amanda Dunbar]

Thanks for the kind words about Angie. ;)

Yes Joe... its been great to finally be able to connect with Angie and see her so happy. She really deserves it! She's a great person that also has a wonderful road ahead of her in bodybuilding. I can't wait to see how the Nat's go for her, especially with it now being in her own backyard! She's already had a great year.... I can't wait!


Amanda

[CalJoe]

Yes Joe... its been great to finally be able to connect with Angie and see her so happy. She really deserves it! She's a great person that also has a wonderful road ahead of her in bodybuilding. I can't wait to see how the Nat's go for her, especially with it now being in her own backyard! She's already had a great year.... I can't wait!


Amanda
We're still friends, and I know she's fired up about Nationals, so we'll see what happens.

[Jason]

How about girls like Barbara Fletcher, Jennifer Chehardy, Jodi Coy, Rebekka Armstrong and Jamie Troxel? Maybe they will be also adding their beautiful physiques to the mix in Miami??

[bthomas77]

Lisa Bickels is gonna look awesome in her return to bodybuilding.....

i may have said that before, but i was too lazy to look back at the first two pages...

[Maxt]

If it is anything like last year, it's got to be Debi Laszewski. She has got the total package.

[Echo]

If it is anything like last year, it's got to be Debi Laszewski. She has got the total package.

If it is anything like last year, the judges will award first place to someone who does not look like the clear and obvious winner.

[CalJoe]

If it is anything like last year, the judges will award first place to someone who does not look like the clear and obvious winner.
Here's to you Echo :cheers: , truer words have never been spoken.

[Maxt]

Maybe that is a comment Dena Westerfield's victory? People that are purposefully vague and post riddles as comments? They do not tell the truth like I do. In the Light Heavyweights at last year's Nationals I could have gone either way with accepting the judges awarding first place to either Debi Laszewski or Dena (It was that close IMO) but look what Dena has done already as a pro. She's consistently made dramatic improvements since the Junior Nationals which she won first time. Then in the Nationals she wins Light Heavyweight and in her first pro show she finishes second? She could have won? I'd say she has got what it takes now as long as she keeps a balance between her legs and upper body. I'd even say she'll do very well in the Ms. Olympia? With the Heavies, Jody May made such a great improvement to get second but she just maybe didn't have the muscle maturity and presence that the experienced Mimi Jabalee had? It was good for Jody to get second lasst year and she just may move up to first place Heavyweight in '06? I'd like to know how Hans sees it? Judging has been a little inconsistent, but if there can be a consistency in judging it is going to have to be awarding high places to competitors that pay attention to detail and display the total package like you saw at the Europa with Dena Westerfield or Colette Nelson. I wasn't aware there was a whole lot of controversey about the Nationals last year but if there was one it didn't make it to the magazines or the internet? So I'd say speaking of Dena Westerfield and looking back one year later she was a wise choice as a Nationals champ and I hope that now Debi Laszewski gets her chance to step up as well?

[Echo]

Maybe that is a comment Dena Westerfield's victory? People that are purposefully vague and post riddles as comments? They do not tell the truth like I do. In the Light Heavyweights at last year's Nationals I could have gone either way with accepting the judges awarding first place to either Debi Laszewski or Dena (It was that close IMO) but look what Dena has done already as a pro. She's consistently made dramatic improvements since the Junior Nationals which she won first time. Then in the Nationals she wins Light Heavyweight and in her first pro show she finishes second? She could have won? I'd say she has got what it takes now as long as she keeps a balance between her legs and upper body. I'd even say she'll do very well in the Ms. Olympia? With the Heavies, Jody May made such a great improvement to get second but she just maybe didn't have the muscle maturity and presence that the experienced Mimi Jabalee had? It was good for Jody to get second lasst year and she just may move up to first place Heavyweight in '06? I'd like to know how Hans sees it? Judging has been a little inconsistent, but if there can be a consistency in judging it is going to have to be awarding high places to competitors that pay attention to detail and display the total package like you saw at the Europa with Dena Westerfield or Colette Nelson. I wasn't aware there was a whole lot of controversey about the Nationals last year but if there was one it didn't make it to the magazines or the internet? So I'd say speaking of Dena Westerfield and looking back one year later she was a wise choice as a Nationals champ and I hope that now Debi Laszewski gets her chance to step up as well?

I find your opinions about "people who are purposefully vague and post riddles as comments" to be very amusing in light of the fact that every other sentence you post ends with a question mark. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that "they don't tell the truth, like I do." I'm just not certain what world you are living in. In many respects, your comments remind me of the dialogue of 'John Nash,' the character played by Russell Crowe in the movie "A Beautiful Mind." The only difference is that Nash is a genius.

So, you want straight talk?

Okay:

1) Debbie Lazewski doesn't need a "chance to step up." She already stood head and shoulders above everyone in the light-heavyweight class, if not the entire contest, at last year's Nationals. She was ripped off, period. If you need confirmation of this post a poll question on this forum and see what results you get.

2) Mimi Jabalee won the heavyweight class hands down and was not seriously contested.

3) Dena Westerfield is a very impressive bodybuilder who has made terrific progress over the last three years. (When talking about terrific progress over the last three years you would also have to include Amanda Dunbar in the discussion). In the case of Ms. Westerfield, she doesn't need to "keep a balance between her legs and upper body," she needs to attain balance between her legs and upper body. Otherwise, her preparation for each and every contest has been excellent. She has tremendous upside potential and is definitely someone to watch, but to suggest that she and/or Ms. Nelson represent "the total package" and pinnacle of physical development in bodybuilding is patently ridiculous.

4) Jody May is a very attractive bodybuilder. Just about everyone who follows this sport is eager to see what she can accomplish. Success in bodybuilding takes time. At the National level she has been quietly knocking at the door, but she has yet to kick it in. I am eager to see her attain the development and conditioning necessary to "kick the door in." Maybe this will be her year to do it. We'll see in November.

[CalJoe]

I find your opinions about "people who are purposefully vague and post riddles as comments" to be very amusing in light of the fact that every other sentence you post ends with a question mark. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that "they don't tell the truth, like I do." I'm just not certain what world you are living in. In many respects, your comments remind me of the dialogue of 'John Nash,' the character played by Russell Crowe in the movie "A Beautiful Mind." The only difference is that Nash is a genius.

So, you want straight talk?

Okay:

1) Debbie Lazewski doesn't need a "chance to step up." She already stood head and shoulders above everyone in the light-heavyweight class, if not the entire contest, at last year's Nationals. She was ripped off, period. If you need confirmation of this post a poll question on this forum and see what results you get.

2) Mimi Jabalee won the heavyweight class hands down and was not seriously contested.

3) Dena Westerfield is a very impressive bodybuilder who has made terrific progress over the last three years. (When talking about terrific progress over the last three years you would also have to include Amanda Dunbar in the discussion). In the case of Ms. Westerfield, she doesn't need to "keep a balance between her legs and upper body," she needs to attain balance between her legs and upper body. Otherwise, her preparation for each and every contest has been excellent. She has tremendous upside potential and is definitely someone to watch, but to suggest that she and/or Ms. Nelson represent "the total package" and pinnacle of physical development in bodybuilding is patently ridiculous.

4) Jody May is a very attractive bodybuilder. Just about everyone who follows this sport is eager to see what she can accomplish. Success in bodybuilding takes time. At the National level she has been quietly knocking at the door, but she has yet to kick it in. I am eager to see her attain the development and conditioning necessary to "kick the door in." Maybe this will be her year to do it. We'll see in November.
Another post well written and on the money. I don't think anyone in this forum hits the nail on the head with the frequency Echo does.

[CalJoe]

Maybe that is a comment Dena Westerfield's victory? People that are purposefully vague and post riddles as comments? They do not tell the truth like I do. In the Light Heavyweights at last year's Nationals I could have gone either way with accepting the judges awarding first place to either Debi Laszewski or Dena (It was that close IMO) but look what Dena has done already as a pro. She's consistently made dramatic improvements since the Junior Nationals which she won first time. Then in the Nationals she wins Light Heavyweight and in her first pro show she finishes second? She could have won? I'd say she has got what it takes now as long as she keeps a balance between her legs and upper body. I'd even say she'll do very well in the Ms. Olympia? With the Heavies, Jody May made such a great improvement to get second but she just maybe didn't have the muscle maturity and presence that the experienced Mimi Jabalee had? It was good for Jody to get second lasst year and she just may move up to first place Heavyweight in '06? I'd like to know how Hans sees it? Judging has been a little inconsistent, but if there can be a consistency in judging it is going to have to be awarding high places to competitors that pay attention to detail and display the total package like you saw at the Europa with Dena Westerfield or Colette Nelson. I wasn't aware there was a whole lot of controversey about the Nationals last year but if there was one it didn't make it to the magazines or the internet? So I'd say speaking of Dena Westerfield and looking back one year later she was a wise choice as a Nationals champ and I hope that now Debi Laszewski gets her chance to step up as well?
It must be nice to live in a world where you see yourself as the all knowing pontificator of truth. Secondly, nobody took a shot at Dena. If anything it was a shot at that whimsical, wacky, wonderful world of judging ;) .

[Maxt]

Thanks for the reply Echo, OK you are argumentative but this time mostly you are right on. Not completely though. I want to see Debi Laszewski do well. I was sad she lost but I had to look into why and that is when I came to appreciate the greatness of Dr. Dena Westerfield! I want to ask if you knew that Dena Westerfield hired Charles Glass to be her trainer and whether he'd be be a positive influence on attaining a great physique to include muscularity, symmetry and proportion and to also include better balance between the upper and lower body, because for one you see she got second at the Europa and for two I think she'll do well at the Olympia. Debi has got to step up to getting *first place* and true-that is a judging situation. Can you think at all why she has had disappointing places at shows like maybe the '00 NPC USA, '01 Nationals and '05 Nationals as well? Why would judges penalize her? The judging does sometimes confuse me, but that is when rather than make all the complaints that some people do: I try and analyze the situation? What I am seeing is yes, indeed they are looking for a "total package" of female bodybuilding with standards of excellence, proportion, symmetry and of course femininity. I don't think Debi has any overmasculinization issues but maybe they thought one: she was too short for her class-which I don't think is a good reason, but two: they might be thinking her lower body overwhelms her upper body? Again though: I am rooting for Debi Laszewski and Jody May at the Nationals and Dena Westerfield and Colette Nelson at the Olympia.

[Maxt]

It must be nice to live in a world where you see yourself as the all knowing pontificator of truth. It is indeed nice to live in this world, to pontificate the truth, and to love the lovely ladies of female bodybuilding. I am a little upbeat because I am optimistic when I see great competitors like Dena, Colette then Debi and Jody May. Some people will forgive my enthusiasm for the lovely ladies and preferences for femininity guidelines because they agree with me.. I don't just love the trophy winners or consistent high placers of female bodybuilding. I love all of the ladies that compete and show great sportsmanship because for the most part they are all winners once they walk upon that stage.

[CalJoe]

Thanks for the reply Echo, OK you are argumentative but this time mostly you are right on. Not completely though. I want to see Debi Laszewski do well. I was sad she lost but I had to look into why and that is when I came to appreciate the greatness of Dr. Dena Westerfield! I want to ask if you knew that Dena Westerfield hired Charles Glass to be her trainer and whether he'd be be a positive influence on attaining a great physique to include muscularity, symmetry and proportion and to also include better balance between the upper and lower body, because for one you see she got second at the Europa and for two I think she'll do well at the Olympia. Debi has got to step up to getting *first place* and true-that is a judging situation. Can you think at all why she has had disappointing places at shows like maybe the '00 NPC USA, '01 Nationals and '05 Nationals as well? Why would judges penalize her? The judging does sometimes confuse me, but that is when rather than make all the complaints that some people do: I try and analyze the situation? What I am seeing is yes, indeed they are looking for a "total package" of female bodybuilding with standards of excellence, proportion, symmetry and of course femininity. I don't think Debi has any overmasculinization issues but maybe they thought one: she was too short for her class-which I don't think is a good reason, but two: they might be thinking her lower body overwhelms her upper body? Again though: I am rooting for Debi Laszewski and Jody May at the Nationals and Dena Westerfield and Colette Nelson at the Olympia.
Debi has already "stepped up" twice that I can think of. She can't help it if the judges don't step up their powers of objectivity. I was at the 2000 USA, and Debi looked absolultely amazing. Well, she picked the wrong year to look amazing, because that was the year of the dredded NPC letter to the athletes. That was the year the NPC decided to give the USA to Jennifer McVicar, who had the muscularity of a suped up figure competitor (nothing against figure, but figure is figure, and bodybuilding is bodybuilding). Debi looked awesome, and was awarded 7th place in the heavyweight class. Debi looked so good at that show she could have done 4 quarter turns and walked off the stage, it was over.

Flash forward to 2005 Nationals. Debi comes in completely dialed in again, and lost the class to Dena. Dena is a nice competitor, but Debi had her in all aspects of bodybuilding. Debi has stepped up twice already to the tune of "she should have won her pro card already", but for whatever reason, the NPC doesn't see it that way. It's not Debi's fault by any stretch of the imagination.

[Maxt]

Debi has already "stepped up" twice that I can think of. She can't help it if the judges don't step up their powers of objectivity. I was at the 2000 USA, and Debi looked absolultely amazing. Well, she picked the wrong year to look amazing, because that was the year of the dredded NPC letter to the athletes. That was the year the NPC decided to give the USA to Jennifer McVicar, who had the muscularity of a suped up figure competitor (nothing against figure, but figure is figure, and bodybuilding is bodybuilding). Debi looked awesome, and was awarded 7th place in the heavyweight class. I already knew this but Jennifer McVicar looked good too. Regardless Debi never directly competed against Jennifer because as you probably know they were in different classes. These moments come in Bodybuilding when you must try and figure out WHY they are doing what they are doing? Judges choosing who they like. I'd say the judges wanted to make a statement or were given very close instruction. Debi suffered consequenses which were not so fair but not really related to Jennifer McVicar either.

[CalJoe]

I already knew this but Jennifer McVicar looked good too. Regardless Debi never directly competed against Jennifer because as you probably know they were in different classes. These moments come in Bodybuilding when you must try and figure out WHY they are doing what they are doing? Judges choosing who they like. I'd say the judges wanted to make a statement or were given very close instruction. Debi suffered consequenses which were not so fair but not really related to Jennifer McVicar either.
It was very fortunate for Jennifer that she and Debi were in different classes, because comparing Jennifer to Debi that year would have been ludicrous. Politics aside (a major consideration), Debi was light years beyond Jennifer at that show. The people in the audience were in shock when Debi didn't make first callout. The Debi situation is related to Jennifer. Jennifer won, because of a change in the judging that made it impossible for Debi to be judged fairly. Jennifer was the beneficiary of a situation whereby Debi was penalized for being the far superior bodybuilder on that day. I don't know why I waste my time and energy discussing these things with you Maxt, after all, you're the all knower of universal truth. So Maxt says, so it is written ;) .

[CalJoe]

It is indeed nice to live in this world, to pontificate the truth, and to love the lovely ladies of female bodybuilding. I am a little upbeat because I am optimistic when I see great competitors like Dena, Colette then Debi and Jody May. Some people will forgive my enthusiasm for the lovely ladies and preferences for femininity guidelines because they agree with me.. I don't just love the trophy winners or consistent high placers of female bodybuilding. I love all of the ladies that compete and show great sportsmanship because for the most part they are all winners once they walk upon that stage.
The use of the word feminine is being used ad-nauseum in these discussions. First of all, a woman can be feminine and not be attractive (at least not by Maxt's guidelines). A woman can also be attractive by these same guidelines and not be feminine or be less feminine. Be very careful when throwing that feminine word around Maxt. Attractiveness and femininity are two totally and unrelated things. A woman can be not-so attractive and yet be the epitome of femininity. I've seen a lot of opinions thrown around about this and that competitor being feminine, with no discussion about other attributes other than physical features that have a lot to do with whether or not a woman is feminine. Femininity is more than a pretty face and a nice shape Maxt,,,much more.

A final question: Was Bob Paris masculine?

[Echo]

Reply to Maxt post#76:

As I indicated before, Dena Westerfield is an excellent bodybuilder. Insofar, as an "appreciation of the greatness of Dr. Dena Westerfield," I think the "greatness" remains to be seen. If you want to erect a verbal alter upon which to worship her, that is your prerogative. But that is a project that I can not and will not share.

Charles Glass is a well regarded trainer. He is willing to think "outside the box" and is adept at finding innovative ways of performing exercises and targeting body parts. However, he is not a guarantor of success. Paul Dillett worked with him. So did Flex Wheeler. So has Dennis James. Guess what? None of these guys have won the Mr. Olympia.

Personally, I think that Dr. Westerfield just needs time and more of the continuous good training that she has applied these last few years. I don't think that training with Charles is ultimately going to be the decisive factor as to whether she reaches the pinnacle of success in bodybuilding. I certainly wouldn't underestimate the "bigness" of the person that lies within her. I suspect that this is where her greatest strength lies.

As for Debbie Lazewski's unexpectedly low placings, I would suggest to you that the reason she did not win was purely political. It is no secret that Debbie has repeatedly appeared "fully exposed" in 'Muscle Elegance' and in various video "entertainment" products that continue to be sold and disseminated by Muscle Elegance. NPC "corporate" is aware of this. The NPC judges are aware of this. None are completely comfortable about this, and the discomfort has been expressed by her placing(s) in the contests you referenced.

The "Nationals" is the "crown jewel" of the NPC. If you know anything at all about the NPC, how eager do you think they would be to award their most prestigious title to an athlete who has routinely appeared in materials produced by a publication that has evolved into a "soft-core" entertainment source for fetishists?

You are wasting your time, and everyone else's, looking for legitimate, bodybuilding based reasons for Ms. Lazewski's placings. As stated previously, based upon the package that she brought to the stage at the 2005 Nationals, Debbie Lazewski was ripped off, period.

[eseiple]

Does anyone besides myself get frustrated with this?

Bottom line....arguing about who should have won or who shouldn't have won...does not affect the judging.

Dena and Debbie...both had strengths both had weaknesses....it was a matter of who they judges liked that day. Sometimes our favorites win sometimes they don't. BUt we all know this when we step on stage...it doesn't come as a shock. We all prepare to be the best WE can be...we can not affect how the other girls are going to look. WE can only worry about ourselves. Last years nationals is over. Debi will come in looking great again this year . I Do not think its anythiNg personal against Debi from the jugdges. She provides a positive image IMO for this sport and she does a lot for it on a daily basis.

As far as Jody May and Mimi...both had fantastic physiques and I am impressed with the improvements Jody is making each year. But Mimi last year compared to the year be fore ...WOW amazing and she deserved it. I too agree that Jody has a definate shot at the Heavies. But i refrain from picking winners because you never know what can happen....Sometimes the unexpected happens and you have to think that there will be girls there perhaps we never heard about:)

All i know is all the women that are doing the Nationals.....I know you are all trianing and dieting hard...I am right there with you ! I am excited to see you all and compete with you all...and who ever wins....I hope you do a great job at the next level! In the meantime....SSNC ( OK SO ONLY AMANDA D WILL GET THAT)

[Echo]

Bottom line....arguing about who should have won or who shouldn't have won...does not affect the judging.

Dena and Debbie...both had strengths both had weaknesses....it was a matter of who they judges liked that day...

You are absolutely right. But it is naive to assume that there is no bias or conflict of interest among these judges. Or, that judging decisions can not be manipulated by external directives. Or, that whatever written judging criteria that exists is not vague, amorphous, subject to varying interpretations, and has not been derived from a consensus of opinion of athletes, (or former athletes) who form the backbone of these competitions.

Many people who read these forums, including some of the athletes themselves, conclude that some of these discussions are nothing more than exercises in "athlete bashing." But this is an incorrect conclusion. It is not the "average" athlete or the "lousy" athlete that finds herself getting screwed in the NPC/IFBB, it is the good athlete that is usually victimized. And that is what usually gets our collective blood boiling.

Every athlete who steps on that stage has earned the right to be carefully evaluated and compared with her fellow athlete in a fair, unbiased manner. These are not "beauty contests." These are not "femininity" a.k.a sexual attractiveness contests. These are bodybuilding contests. In the final analysis, it is the individual athlete who puts forth the work and decides what "product" she is going to display on the stage to be judged. That is what I respect, above all.

Finding fault with the organization and supporting the athlete are not mutually exclusive.

[Echo]

While it was not necessary for her play the role of a "peace-maker" in this discussion, I am very glad to have Elena Seiple as a member of this forum and to remain an active competitor in bodybuilding. She has offered generous and kind words with respect to the other athletes who are expected to compete this year. I am certain that her capacity to express such sentiments, along with her superb physique and physical strength, are the predominant reasons why so many people view her as a leader in this sport.

[BodybuilderBeth]

I have to admit that Echo has an AMAZING way of excpressing the TRUTH and being very REAL with what is going on with the sport!

It reminds me of Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men", where he defiantly replies to Tom Cruise....."YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!"

Perhaps alot of forum members don't like to hear what is being said about the politics of this sport. It is sad, I know.....but true :(

[MsGuns]

My good friend...Tina Chandler... this yrs USA's MW winner WILL be doing nationals....watch out for her....quite few pros have commented that "she is on her way"...i cant wait...

[rpflex]

How about girls like Barbara Fletcher, Jennifer Chehardy, Jodi Coy, Rebekka Armstrong and Jamie Troxel? Maybe they will be also adding their beautiful physiques to the mix in Miami??

Jen Chehardy is taking a break from competition, but I have heard that Barbara Fletcher plans to compete. Of course, my money is on Tara Guzman in the lightweights. :D

[rpflex]

As for Debbie Lazewski's unexpectedly low placings, I would suggest to you that the reason she did not win was purely political. It is no secret that Debbie has repeatedly appeared "fully exposed" in 'Muscle Elegance' and in various video "entertainment" products that continue to be sold and disseminated by Muscle Elegance. NPC "corporate" is aware of this. The NPC judges are aware of this. None are completely comfortable about this, and the discomfort has been expressed by her placing(s) in the contests you referenced.

The "Nationals" is the "crown jewel" of the NPC. If you know anything at all about the NPC, how eager do you think they would be to award their most prestigious title to an athlete who has routinely appeared in materials produced by a publication that has evolved into a "soft-core" entertainment source for fetishists?

Echo, that argument doesn't fly... Denise Masino and Dayana Cadeau have done extremely well despite their "fully exposed" states. Actually, I've been impressed that there really hasn't been any "politics" involved in judging these individuals and several others who have what may be considered unconvential ways of supporting themselves. I don't have a clue why they didn't choose Debbie :headscrat ... I just hope she continues to compete and eventually achieves her goal.

[gymdiva1222]

...but I have heard that Barbara Fletcher plans to compete. Of course, my money is on Tara Guzman in the lightweights. :D


they are certainly two on my mind as I train! :sprite10: don't want to look foolish next to the likes of them...they rock!

[Echo]

Echo, that argument doesn't fly... Denise Masino and Dayana Cadeau have done extremely well despite their "fully exposed" states. Actually, I've been impressed that there really hasn't been any "politics" involved in judging these individuals and several others who have what may be considered unconvential ways of supporting themselves. I don't have a clue why they didn't choose Debbie :headscrat ... I just hope she continues to compete and eventually achieves her goal.

Before addressing your post, Robin, it is always a pleasure to see veteran athletes like you participating in the discussions on this forum. We are fortunate to have you.

Robin, can you name one athlete who has been featured in a "pictorial" in Muscle Elegance and subsequently went on to earn pro status through an NPC national-level contest? I would really like to know the answer, because as far as I am aware, appearances in Muscle Elegance have been the "end of the line" for other NPC amateur athletes who had sought pro status (Carla Haug, etc.....).

As far as Denise Masino and Dayana Cadeau are concerned, neither have dominated a pro line-up and seriously threatened to capture an overall title in a major pro contest. Politics do not become an issue if you are a relative non-factor in the final outcome of a contest, wouldn't you agree?

As a matter of fact, in my opinion, there have been occasions in which Dayana Cadeau entered contests in absolutely superb shape and placed lower than we might have expected. As far as Denise Masino is concerned, I have seen one prominent IFBB official smile in her face on moment and then make disparaging remarks about her to others in a private conversation. (But I guess that is not really news to anyone. Female bodybuilders suffer that indignity routinely, even when they are not aware that it is happening.) From what I have been able to glean, she is not taken too seriously by the IFBB. They did seem to like taking her money for display booths at expo's and contests, however.

I'll tell you what. Just take everything I have said with a grain of salt and just come to your own conclusion(s) based upon your own cumulative experience. On this much we can agree: Debbie should have been chosen. I, too, hope that she continues in the sport and attains her goal.

[MsGuns]

May I ask a question?

Echo, how are you involved in the industry?

Are you a competitor, promoter, judge or just a fan?

Ive read most of your posts and was just curious about how you had all the personal facts about these competitors and how you know FOR SURE these ladies dont place well because of how they support themselves....

[eseiple]

I guess as a competitor and feel free to call me naive....I know when I step on stage there may be some judges who just don't like me...BUT I KNOW THIS going into a show. And bottom line... a lot of us are competing because we love competing.

For me...thats the only reason I am competing is because I love it. Its not because of anything else. And because of that it makes it that much better when on stage. One time I let my self compete for the wrong reasons and it not only affected me enjoying the show, but I didn't appreciate someone elses win , much deserved win.

At the Nationals for those of you who were there, they judged the top 3, me Debi and Dena over and over again. They even had us come back out after they were done with the class and judged us again. To me thats a sign that the judges are torn between which direction to go. Both were beautiful, both had good bodies. I love Dena to death and we have been friends for a while....But I thought Debi had a more complete package thats just my opinion. Doesn't mean I don't like Dena. And Dena looked amazing. Why they didn't choose Debi could have been for several reasons. No one was PERFECT...and it comes down to who has the LEAST amount of flaws......and that was Dena on that day.

In Novemeber this year, we all in the light heavy weight class know that Debi is going to be a tough competitor. I have been in touch with Debi as we email back and forth. This woman is all about this sport and bringing something to the table. She has a heart for it and I think she is a great role model for it. I have to compete against her too and I know that is a tough act to follow.

I also know there are other girls to not be discounted. Nicole Berg for one....I think she has so much potential. And also Angie Salvango...too. The class I don't think will be cut and dry I think its going to be a stacked class and a great competition. I am also impressed with Britt Miller as well. SO many of these women impress me and motivate me and I am excited about nationals. I want it to be a fun and great show. Thats all..I don't acare about the politics or the who likes me or who doesn't. I care about being the best I can be and I hope the women come in their best and we just have a BLAST!

[Amanda Dunbar]

As a matter of fact, in my opinion, there have been occasions in which Dayana Cadeau entered contests in absolutely superb shape and placed lower than we might have expected. As far as Denise Masino is concerned, I have seen one prominent IFBB official smile in her face on moment and then make disparaging remarks about her to others in a private conversation. (But I guess that is not really news to anyone. Female bodybuilders suffer that indignity routinely, even when they are not aware that it is happening.) From what I have been able to glean, she is not taken too seriously by the IFBB. They did seem to like taking her money for display booths at expo's and contests, however.


Echo,

With all due respect, when is anyone in this sport taken "too seriously"??? This is bodybuilding remember. I hate to say it like that, but we do have to bring it back to a bit of reality.

Amanda

[CalJoe]

Before addressing your post, Robin, it is always a pleasure to see veteran athletes like you participating in the discussions on this forum. We are fortunate to have you.

Robin, can you name one athlete who has been featured in a "pictorial" in Muscle Elegance and subsequently went on to earn pro status through an NPC national-level contest? I would really like to know the answer, because as far as I am aware, appearances in Muscle Elegance have been the "end of the line" for other NPC amateur athletes who had sought pro status (Carla Haug, etc.....).

As far as Denise Masino and Dayana Cadeau are concerned, neither have dominated a pro line-up and seriously threatened to capture an overall title in a major pro contest. Politics do not become an issue if you are a relative non-factor in the final outcome of a contest, wouldn't you agree?

As a matter of fact, in my opinion, there have been occasions in which Dayana Cadeau entered contests in absolutely superb shape and placed lower than we might have expected. As far as Denise Masino is concerned, I have seen one prominent IFBB official smile in her face on moment and then make disparaging remarks about her to others in a private conversation. (But I guess that is not really news to anyone. Female bodybuilders suffer that indignity routinely, even when they are not aware that it is happening.) From what I have been able to glean, she is not taken too seriously by the IFBB. They did seem to like taking her money for display booths at expo's and contests, however.

I'll tell you what. Just take everything I have said with a grain of salt and just come to your own conclusion(s) based upon your own cumulative experience. On this much we can agree: Debbie should have been chosen. I, too, hope that she continues in the sport and attains her goal.
That's a really good point in that Denise and Dayana appeared in Muscle Elegance AFTER turning pro.

[CalJoe]

Echo,

With all due respect, when is anyone in this sport taken "too seriously"??? This is bodybuilding remember. I hate to say it like that, but we do have to bring it back to a bit of reality.

Amanda
Yes, but I would imagine that anybody would want the dignity involved with being taken seriously as a competing athlete, wouldn't you?

[eseiple]

Don't take this the wrong way please....But the only people taking this sport WAY TOO SERIOUSLY are the ones arguing over mute points.

[Amanda Dunbar]

Agreed E......

[CalJoe]

Don't take this the wrong way please....But the only people taking this sport WAY TOO SERIOUSLY are the ones arguing over mute points.
I agree too. It is a forum, and since we are not in any position to effect change in the sport all that is left is to say what we think in these forums.
Best of luck to you in Miami :banana:

[Maxt]

I don't think Muscle Elegance had anything to do with Debi Laszewski's placings. Like Robin says the argument doesn't fly. I think in this case because they stopped printing and now it is 2006, she's not doing that anymore. Back in the Nineties it was a big deal with a little bit more controversey. Debi did Desert Foxes in 2001, another in 2002, there was nudity, yes but it wasn't much . It was very good taste, more artistic than explicit. I have two of her videos. One poster. She has a great store at http://www.debilaszewski.com . Good try but Nooooo, I don;t think so? The NPC is very competitive. Femininity? Whatever you think it will play a role in the future of women's bodybuilding even if you have to use different terminology.

[CalJoe]

I don't think Muscle Elegance had anything to do with Debi Laszewski's placings. Like Robin says the argument doesn't fly in this case because they stopped printing and now it is 2006, she's not doing that anymore. Back in the Nineties it was a big deal with a little bit more controversey. Debi did Desert Foxes in 2001, there was nudity, yes but it wasn't much . Good try but Nooooo, I don;t think so? The NPC is very competitive. Femininity? Whatever you think it will play a role in the future of women's bodybuilding even if you have to use different terminology.
Again do you mean femininity or attractiveness? As for the Muscle Elegance angle, I believe the NPC has a long memory for these types of things and others. After Lora Ottenad's tantrums in the 2000 USA and 2000 Nationals, it wouldn't surprise me if she never gets her card regardless of what she might look in future shows or what she looked like in past shows.

Maxt, I sure hope all your sucking up with the fbb's is paying off, because the ass kissing you do in here might be the only ass kissing you ever experience with a fbb'er. Pucker up!!

[eseiple]

If her appearance in muscle elegance is the reason she didn't win you would have to assume that ALLLL the judges happened to read Muscle Elegance....Which I don't think is the case...therefor I don't feel a valid argument...But then again thats just me.

[eseiple]

Also you assume the judges sit around and discuss us...I have been around the judges and I have mentioned top names and they ahve looked at me and had no clue who I was talking about....Dont' assume they always have their minds made up before we get there. Perhaps in some cases maybe they do but they stare at hundreds of girls that day....Of course there are some "politics" that are played...But thats part of this sport...you have to be able to accept it. Its a sport based upon a personal opinion of 12 people and people are so different that you cant' expect all 12 to agree...just like Maxt, Echo, Cal, Amanda all of us don't agree but that doesn't mean any one of us is wrong...its just a matter of which type of opinion over rides on that day.

[rpflex]

Before addressing your post, Robin, it is always a pleasure to see veteran athletes like you participating in the discussions on this forum. We are fortunate to have you.

Robin, can you name one athlete who has been featured in a "pictorial" in Muscle Elegance and subsequently went on to earn pro status through an NPC national-level contest? I would really like to know the answer, because as far as I am aware, appearances in Muscle Elegance have been the "end of the line" for other NPC amateur athletes who had sought pro status (Carla Haug, etc.....).

Thanks, Echo. I think it's important to participate in forums such as this and wish more competitors felt the same.

Yes, I can name at least one athlete who was featured and went on to earn pro status - ME!!! My Bill Dobbins pictoral was in an early publication which I can't locate right now. Christi Wolf was on the cover of that issue. Christi won her pro qualifier in 1998 and since I can't find the magazine, I'm not sure if she did her pictoral before or after...

Here's one of the scandalous shots... gee, you think that's why it took me so long to get my pro card???

[rpflex]

Also you assume the judges sit around and discuss us...I have been around the judges and I have mentioned top names and they ahve looked at me and had no clue who I was talking about....Dont' assume they always have their minds made up before we get there. Perhaps in some cases maybe they do but they stare at hundreds of girls that day....Of course there are some "politics" that are played...But thats part of this sport...you have to be able to accept it. Its a sport based upon a personal opinion of 12 people and people are so different that you cant' expect all 12 to agree...just like Maxt, Echo, Cal, Amanda all of us don't agree but that doesn't mean any one of us is wrong...its just a matter of which type of opinion over rides on that day.

Good points, Elena. We also need to consider the fact that national and pro level shows have the 2 high scores and 2 low scores thrown out. I think this is a good system of checks and balances which should help to weed out those who may judge a competitor on their personal life rather than how they compare to all the others on that day.

I think you judge for the NPC in NJ as I do here in Louisiana. I can certainly say that if all things are equal between 2 athletes, I will be partial to the one I know personally. Fortunately, that RARELY occurs, but it is human nature to be biased towards those you know or those you see have made improvements. I take judging very seriously and I'm sure most of the national level and pro level judges feel the same, so I am very careful NOT to let personal bias cloud my opinion when it comes to judging.

[eseiple]

I agree with you Robin.....And I judge so many times and the other day someone said to me..."I won't compete in NJ because the shows are fixed"...#1...I am a judge....#2 I do the scores...and I have never fixed scores...and I sit next to the head judge who I argue with at times over who he likes and who I like...but he never tells me who to choose. And I don't influence the person next to me nor do we get together before a show and say psst lets pick so and so ...or lets screw this person for fun...YEAH!

When I judge I also rarely notice the face I am focusing on the body so sometimes I dont' even realize who I just judged and it may be someone I know.

[CalJoe]

Also you assume the judges sit around and discuss us...I have been around the judges and I have mentioned top names and they ahve looked at me and had no clue who I was talking about....Dont' assume they always have their minds made up before we get there. Perhaps in some cases maybe they do but they stare at hundreds of girls that day....Of course there are some "politics" that are played...But thats part of this sport...you have to be able to accept it. Its a sport based upon a personal opinion of 12 people and people are so different that you cant' expect all 12 to agree...just like Maxt, Echo, Cal, Amanda all of us don't agree but that doesn't mean any one of us is wrong...its just a matter of which type of opinion over rides on that day.
It's a good point you're making, particularly the one about some of the judges not even knowing who some of the athletes are. I have seen, and others in this forum have mentioned it as well, where judges are seen talking to each other extensively while competitors are onstage during mandatories and 60 second routines. That is a problem too. Perhaps they should install partitions between the judges the way they do in some shows in Europe. There is personal opinion diversity among 11 judges, but you have to wonder how diverse those opinions are when you see the unanimity in scores you see on scoresheets. Eleven different opinions would produce a variance in scores, but often you see scores duplicated across the board, and that is where the politics and agenda come into play. Just my opinion.

[CalJoe]

I agree with you Robin.....And I judge so many times and the other day someone said to me..."I won't compete in NJ because the shows are fixed"...#1...I am a judge....#2 I do the scores...and I have never fixed scores...and I sit next to the head judge who I argue with at times over who he likes and who I like...but he never tells me who to choose. And I don't influence the person next to me nor do we get together before a show and say psst lets pick so and so ...or lets screw this person for fun...YEAH!

When I judge I also rarely notice the face I am focusing on the body so sometimes I dont' even realize who I just judged and it may be someone I know.
I wish all the judges did their job the way you do Elena. :sprite10:

[Amanda Dunbar]

Sad that people cannot look at a comparison shot of people and see the difference in physiques. Why is it so hard? Debi, in my opinion (who I am a HUGE FAN of), is absolutely beautiful, with a great stage presence, beautiful muscle shapes, etc.... The fact of the matter is, size does not win shows anymore.

I think the majority of people get it, but some (JOE) will never go for a more streamlined muscular bodybuilder (figure girl as he calls it). LOL. Muscularity doesn't have to be massive to win a show. It has to be proportionate, symmetrical and have good conditioning. If someone stands next to them and symmmetrically/structurally is better, they will win.

Joe and I will ALWAYS disagree and I am ok with that, because everyone prefers something different. This is a subjective sport, why is why so many personalities and opinions will always clash.


I agree with what Elena and Robin are saying about the judging. I can't even believe that people still think Muscle Elegance has something to do with why Debi didn't win? Are you kidding?

Amanda

[Echo]

...Yes, I can name at least one athlete who was featured and went on to earn pro status - ME!!! My Bill Dobbins pictoral was in an early publication which I can't locate right now. Christi Wolf was on the cover of that issue. Christi won her pro qualifier in 1998 and since I can't find the magazine, I'm not sure if she did her pictoral before or after...

Here's one of the scandalous shots... gee, you think that's why it took me so long to get my pro card???

Robin, where is the gynecologic scenery? I don't believe that Bill Dobbins includes those kind of shots in his work. That is what I was referring to when I used the phrasing ' "pictorial" in Muscle Elegance'. Perhaps I should have been more specific, but I assumed that readers would read between the lines and understand what I was attempting to convey.

In your particular case, you had photographs taken with a highly reputable and artistic physique photographer and then submitted your pictures to Muscle Elegance for publication. That is an entirely different "kettle of fish" than being photographed by Muscle Elegance's 'in-house' photographer and posing/exposing yourself in the manner that this magazine has become known for.

All the same, I do appreciate your sense of humor, Robin. As a final thought, we can check with Maxt about this, but I believe that Christi Wolf earned Pro status prior to her appearance in the magazine and, I also believe, Peggy Schoolcraft as well. Do you want to take the converse position and argue that all of the athletes were competitively helped by their appearance in Muscle Elegance?

[CalJoe]

Sad that people cannot look at a comparison shot of people and see the difference in physiques. Why is it so hard? Debi, in my opinion (who I am a HUGE FAN of), is absolutely beautiful, with a great stage presence, beautiful muscle shapes, etc.... The fact of the matter is, size does not win shows anymore.

I think the majority of people get it, but some (JOE) will never go for a more streamlined muscular bodybuilder (figure girl as he calls it). LOL. Muscularity doesn't have to be massive to win a show. It has to be proportionate, symmetrical and have good conditioning. If someone stands next to them and symmmetrically/structurally is better, they will win.

Joe and I will ALWAYS disagree and I am ok with that, because everyone prefers something different. This is a subjective sport, why is why so many personalities and opinions will always clash.


I agree with what Elena and Robin are saying about the judging. I can't even believe that people still think Muscle Elegance has something to do with why Debi didn't win? Are you kidding?

Amanda
I'm amused that the implication of your post is that some people get it and I don't? The level of your self-serving comments never cease to amaze me. I don't think a woman has to be massive to win. I do believe she has to complete. I think she has to have the right combination of size, conditioning, and symmetry. Let's go over the USA that just happened; Claire in the lightweights, the right call; Tina in the middles, the right call; Angie in the light-heavies, the right call; Heather in the heavies, the right call. Let's go to the 05 Nationals; Norma in the middles, right call; Mimi (she's not big, she must be a dainty little heavyweight), right call; Dena in the light-heavies, NOT the right call. Mimi was the biggest woman in the show, and you're saying that size doesn't win show? Who are you kidding?

Symmetry and structure are fine, and I think that is the most important component, but the physique has to be complete (full detailed legs, detailed hamstrings, a back that is wide and thick and detailed, nice shoulder to waist differential etc). Personally, I believe the most crucial bodyparts are legs and back. The back has to be detailed, thick, and wide. The legs have to be full and detailed from all angles. I'm not calling for massiveness, only for the best packaged combination.

Size doesn't win shows anymore? Tell Heather Policky that, or better yet, tell Iris and Yaxeni that. Better yet, tell Mimi that :1eek: ;) . You always take a shot and what you don't have. It's part of your self-serving nature. You figure that if you don't have something it's not necessary to have, and whatever you have is the new calling card of the sport. You probably don't agree with my take on the importance of having a wide, thick, detailed back, because you don't have one. Your smug, condescending remarks always leave me wishing I had an airline vomit bag handy, and believe me when I say that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

[rpflex]

Robin, where is the gynecologic scenery? I don't believe that Bill Dobbins includes those kind of shots in his work. That is what I was referring to when I used the phrasing ' "pictorial" in Muscle Elegance'. Perhaps I should have been more specific, but I assumed that readers would read between the lines and understand what I was attempting to convey.
Do you want to take the converse position and argue that all of these athletes were competitively helped by their appearance in Muscle Elegance?

Echo, of course it would be silly to take the converse position. You just asked for ONE example and I gave it to you.

You're right that my pictorial was very tame. I felt it was more important to have artistic shots and keep my privates private. I would never feel comfortable doing very explicit photographs, but that's just me. But, by your reasoning, it stands that every judge reads and takes notes on MEM to see who's good and who's EVIL :angryfire... that one exposes too much, therefore we'll never let her win or that one doesn't show too much so she's okay.

I stand on my example of Denise and Dayana. Desiree Ellis comes to mind as well as competitors who were not penalized because of their association with MEM. If they had been, they would have been at the bottom of their classes (when they had classes) and not coming in 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

Like Elena said, it's just silly to think the judges have an agenda and have discussed the outcome prior to the contest.

On the other hand, it is true that the HEAD JUDGE makes the call outs based on his or her opinion of how the competitors should place and I'd definitely like to see a revision of this practise. Perhaps each of the judges could list their call outs and an average could determine the order of the call outs. I don't know how this could be implemented, but it needs to be considered. As a judge, you must be concerned that your placings fall within a percentile that agrees with the final consensus, therefore, you must place the competitors in each group of 5 or 6 as they are called out and there may be little room for overlap from group to group.

Another possibility is to call them out in the order of appearance in groups of 5 or 6 and then have each judge submit his or her choices for comparisons of 3, 4 or 5 athletes. I believe this is the way it's done in the Texas NPC.

Well, I don't suppose they'll be coming to us any time soon for suggestions on how to improve the judging procedure, but it's good to have a dialog about it.

[eseiple]

One thing you have to keep in mind when you say ...Amanda's physique won the USA...yet Heathers won this year etc...You have to look at what each competitor was up against....

Amanda at the USA last year had good muscularity, leaness and that freaky shape... Balance of all..She was up against me who came in my biggest and, hardest but didn't have the same lines as Amanda... I will be the first to admit too I didn't carry the "femine" shape I usually did in previous shows....I was a bit big and bulky something I am remedying this year I hope...lol Amanda won because she had fewer flaws than I did as well. And had a better package. Go to the USA this year and Heather was in a class of her own against everyone else. Not to knock the other girls but when I look at an overall winner I look at who will best represent FBB at the PRO LEVEL which of the gtirls of there looks ready to compete against the current PRO's...and in my mind that was Heather.

At the Nationals last year...I too am a HUGE Debi fan...But Debi does have flaws as well. So does Dena...Did the judges want better lines? Fuller muscle bellies? Bigger legs? or Bigger upper body? doesn't matter here or there...Both were very muscular .

In the heavies last year I thought it was between Jody and Mimi and Jody looked fantastic but I think Mimi had more muscle maturity and was a bit harder or crisper...However Jody I would definately put money on for this year. I was very impressed with both actually as stated earlier.

I don't think its that they don't want a lot of muscle on the girls...I think if you are going to carry the more muscle you have to really PULL IT OFF in a very feminine fashion. If you come in big bulky blocky of course that will not win. But if you can pack on the pounds and keep your lines...different story.

IE GINA DAVIS won the NATIONALS in 2004 and she carried a ton of muscle.

[Echo]

....For me...thats the only reason I am competing is because I love it. Its not because of anything else. And because of that it makes it that much better when on stage....

... So many of these women impress me and motivate me and I am excited about nationals. I want it to be a fun and great show. Thats all..I don't acare about the politics or the who likes me or who doesn't. I care about being the best I can be and I hope the women come in their best and we just have a BLAST!

I absolutely agree with you, Elena. That is the way all of our athletes should feel. They should not be burdened by thoughts of politics or what her fellow competitor(s) are doing. The contests should be fair and FUN. And, at the state/regional level, that is usually the case.

However, at the National level the situational and environmental dynamics change and, as a result, certain problems have arisen at times. At that point, female bodybuilders are peppered by the organizatioin by certain directives. The athlete has new concerns which enter the mind. Code words like "femininity" and all of its interpretations and insinuations intrude the self-image and contest prep plans of the athlete. And that is just the start.

By pointing out the inequities and shortcomings of the NPC/IFBB and offering possible solutions, I think that we can collectively help our athletes. But positive change can not be affected unless all members of our bodybuilding community are aware of these shortcomings. Speaking only for myself, I just want bodybuilding to be enjoyable and rewarding for all the atletes who have been doing the hard work to participate.

[CalJoe]

One thing you have to keep in mind when you say ...Amanda's physique won the USA...yet Heathers won this year etc...You have to look at what each competitor was up against....

Amanda at the USA last year had good muscularity, leaness and that freaky shape... Balance of all..She was up against me who came in my biggest and, hardest but didn't have the same lines as Amanda... I will be the first to admit too I didn't carry the "femine" shape I usually did in previous shows....I was a bit big and bulky something I am remedying this year I hope...lol Amanda won because she had fewer flaws than I did as well. And had a better package. Go to the USA this year and Heather was in a class of her own against everyone else. Not to knock the other girls but when I look at an overall winner I look at who will best represent FBB at the PRO LEVEL which of the gtirls of there looks ready to compete against the current PRO's...and in my mind that was Heather.

At the Nationals last year...I too am a HUGE Debi fan...But Debi does have flaws as well. So does Dena...Did the judges want better lines? Fuller muscle bellies? Bigger legs? or Bigger upper body? doesn't matter here or there...Both were very muscular .

In the heavies last year I thought it was between Jody and Mimi and Jody looked fantastic but I think Mimi had more muscle maturity and was a bit harder or crisper...However Jody I would definately put money on for this year. I was very impressed with both actually as stated earlier.

I don't think its that they don't want a lot of muscle on the girls...I think if you are going to carry the more muscle you have to really PULL IT OFF in a very feminine fashion. If you come in big bulky blocky of course that will not win. But if you can pack on the pounds and keep your lines...different story.

IE GINA DAVIS won the NATIONALS in 2004 and she carried a ton of muscle.
You make good points about Mimi and Gina. I'm in favor of mass if it flows nicely, not mass for the sake of mass. I don't agree with your assesment of who had fewer flaws with regard to you against Amanda. I thought you were more complete. Amanda has nice shape, but you were better conditioned, and you had less muscularity flaws than Amanda (muscularity from the side, front and back, upper and lower body from the front and back), and it's not like you were a block up there with no symmetrical lines. On the contrary, you had the best combination of size, conditioning, and symmetry. Amanda's physique may flow very nicely, but she didn't have your overall conditioning nor your level of muscularity.

[eseiple]

I am pretty sure the next time we see Amanda compete ( mind you when she did the USA it was only her 4th? I think time dieting or 5th? ) AND she is still in her mid 20's.....hasn't even reached her peak...that she will do good as a pro! She doesn't have to carry the muscularity that I do because her shape is so unique that she can appear bigger with out having to actually have to put on as much muscle. Which allows her to keep her feminine lines as well.

[eseiple]

By pointing out the inequities and shortcomings of the NPC/IFBB and offering possible solutions, I think that we can collectively help our athletes. But positive change can not be affected unless all members of our bodybuilding community are aware of these shortcomings. Speaking only for myself, I just want bodybuilding to be enjoyable and rewarding for all the atletes who have been doing the hard work to participate.


The thing is there are those of us that find this sport enjoyable and rewarding already with having to have a win or money or anything...We find it rewarding just by improving ourselves and meeting goals we have set out to achieve for ourselves...and the opinions and the politics and the other baloney that goes on doesn't matter...at least to me...because if I can come in better than the show before I have already won in my mind.

[Echo]

.... But, by your reasoning, it stands that every judge reads and takes notes on MEM to see who's good and who's EVIL :angryfire... that one exposes too much, therefore we'll never let her win or that one doesn't show too much so she's okay.


No, it is not necessary for each and every Judge to actually see a particular competitor in Muscle Elegance, a porn film, or whatever. The judges only need to be told of it. Robin, I don't know how much social time you have spent with NPC/IFBB judges (I certainly assume you have spent some), but I have spent a lot of time with them. If I wanted to hear news or "gossip" about a particular bodybuilder all I need to do is hang around one of them. Secrets don't last very long in the bodybuilding community.

As I have said previously, the readers of this forum are free to completely disregard everything I have stated. They should come to their own conclusions based upon their own knowledge and experience.

[CalJoe]

I am pretty sure the next time we see Amanda compete ( mind you when she did the USA it was only her 4th? I think time dieting or 5th? ) AND she is still in her mid 20's.....hasn't even reached her peak...that she will do good as a pro! She doesn't have to carry the muscularity that I do because her shape is so unique that she can appear bigger with out having to actually have to put on as much muscle. Which allows her to keep her feminine lines as well.
I agree, however, I believe she'll need to improve her muscularity to be able to stand next to those seasoned pros, especially with no weight classes.

[CalJoe]

The thing is there are those of us that find this sport enjoyable and rewarding already with having to have a win or money or anything...We find it rewarding just by improving ourselves and meeting goals we have set out to achieve for ourselves...and the opinions and the politics and the other baloney that goes on doesn't matter...at least to me...because if I can come in better than the show before I have already won in my mind.
Great post :cheers:

[Echo]

The thing is there are those of us that find this sport enjoyable and rewarding already with having to have a win or money or anything...We find it rewarding just by improving ourselves and meeting goals we have set out to achieve for ourselves...and the opinions and the politics and the other baloney that goes on doesn't matter...at least to me...because if I can come in better than the show before I have already won in my mind.

Elena, I think that what you have expressed is fantastic. I wish everyone felt that way. But for every Elena Seiple there are ten, if not more, ladies that have dropped out of the sport due to various disappointments. Too bad we can not clone you.

[eseiple]

Trust me...I live with me...and one of ME is enough...LOL 10 of me would be a disaster. ASK ANYONE WHO KNOWS ME!! LOL

[Echo]

Trust me...I live with me...and one of ME is enough...LOL 10 of me would be a disaster. ASK ANYONE WHO KNOWS ME!! LOL

You know, Elena, you have a point. If there were 10 of you at the 2005 USA, the NPC judges would have had a heck of a time figuring out which Elena Seiple to undercut for the light-heavyweight title.

I know, I'm bad....but I mean well.

[hans]

Also you assume the judges sit around and discuss us...I have been around the judges and I have mentioned top names and they ahve looked at me and had no clue who I was talking about....Dont' assume they always have their minds made up before we get there. Perhaps in some cases maybe they do but they stare at hundreds of girls that day....Of course there are some "politics" that are played...But thats part of this sport...you have to be able to accept it. Its a sport based upon a personal opinion of 12 people and people are so different that you cant' expect all 12 to agree...just like Maxt, Echo, Cal, Amanda all of us don't agree but that doesn't mean any one of us is wrong...its just a matter of which type of opinion over rides on that day.

Good post Elena. I agree with you about the judges. A lot of people always see a conspiracy, but I think the problem with judging in women's bodybuilding is more that the judges are not interested.

Hans

[hans]

Amanda at the USA last year had good muscularity, leaness and that freaky shape... Balance of all..She was up against me who came in my biggest and, hardest but didn't have the same lines as Amanda... I will be the first to admit too I didn't carry the "femine" shape I usually did in previous shows....I was a bit big and bulky something I am remedying this year I hope...lol Amanda won because she had fewer flaws than I did as well. And had a better package. Go to the USA this year and Heather was in a class of her own against everyone else. Not to knock the other girls but when I look at an overall winner I look at who will best represent FBB at the PRO LEVEL which of the gtirls of there looks ready to compete against the current PRO's...and in my mind that was Heather.

Very cool post Elena. I'm sure you are going to look even better this year in Miami.

Hans

[eseiple]

Very cool post Elena. I'm sure you are going to look even better this year in Miami.

Hans

Much as I hope so...I do not know...LOL I feel like I am not where I should be at this time...then again I always feel that way...hmmm :stupid:

[Amanda Dunbar]

You will E..... I know you will. :)

Thank you for your post. That does mean a lot to me........ I know you know that. You were pretty phenomenal at the USA and Nats last year, but this year you will have it all. I can't wait to see it! It will be a great time!

Amanda

[CalJoe]

Good post Elena. I agree with you about the judges. A lot of people always see a conspiracy, but I think the problem with judging in women's bodybuilding is more that the judges are not interested.

Hans
There have been times where the judging has been a conspiracy by way of satisfying an agenda or overall politics (this past Europa comes to mind), but I think you're right when you mention the disinterest on the part of judges.

[MsGuns]

echo,

you never answered my question...

how do you know sooo much about HOW FBB are ranked?

No, it is not necessary for each and every Judge to actually see a particular competitor in Muscle Elegance, a porn film, or whatever. The judges only need to be told of it. Robin, I don't know how much social time you have spent with NPC/IFBB judges (I certainly assume you have spent some), but I have spent a lot of time with them. If I wanted to hear news or "gossip" about a particular bodybuilder all I need to do is hang around one of them. Secrets don't last very long in the bodybuilding community.

As I have said previously, the readers of this forum are free to completely disregard everything I have stated. They should come to their own conclusions based upon their own knowledge and experience.

[Scott]

echo,

you never answered my question...

how do you know sooo much about HOW FBB are ranked?

Flex Mag. has rankings of ifbb pros including the women.

[Echo]

echo,

you never answered my question...

how do you know sooo much about HOW FBB are ranked?

I apologize for over-looking and/or not responding to your question sooner. I have no special knowledge about how female or male bodybuilders are ranked. As Scott has stated before me, FLEX magazine as well as certain bodybuilding web sites have offered "unofficial" rankings utilizing mathematical formulas which take into consideration an athlete's contest placings over a certain number of years.

I personally feel that such rankings offer nothing more than "entertainment value" for certain bodybuilding fans. As you probably know, there are so many uncertainties with respect to how an athlete is going to look, much less score at a bodybuilding contest that it is difficult to find any predictive value in such rankings. I suspect that most of the athletes and fans who follow this sport already have an idea as to who the best athletes are and who are the ones to watch in the future.

[CalJoe]

Much as I hope so...I do not know...LOL I feel like I am not where I should be at this time...then again I always feel that way...hmmm :stupid:
I get the feeling Elena is going to show up looking right on target for Nationals. :sprite10:

[hans]

Much as I hope so...I do not know...LOL I feel like I am not where I should be at this time...then again I always feel that way...hmmm :stupid:

Yeah that's normal - I'm sure you're going to look great. Can't wait!

Hans

[rpflex]

There have been times where the judging has been a conspiracy by way of satisfying an agenda or overall politics (this past Europa comes to mind), but I think you're right when you mention the disinterest on the part of judges.

I'd love to know exactly how you think an agenda was satisfied (or overall politics) at the Europa, Joe.

The job of the judges should be to compare the athletes based on how they look on the day of the competition. I do feel that a few were placed too high (and low) based on how they have looked at previous contests and that is definitely not right.

[hans]

Robin - how are the girls you are prepping for Nationals looking?

Hans

[MsGuns]

echo has been stating his opinion about why Debi didnt win because of her Muscle elegance experience...I mean he is so set on this is why she didnt win...i guess i used the wrong words...my question is how do you know for sure this was the reason for her placing...only the judges know and debi and it seems like debi was told she looked to "pro" even though she was trying to get her "pro" card....

[rpflex]

Robin - how are the girls you are prepping for Nationals looking?

Hans

Hans, thanks for asking. Tera looks great. She did a little show in the Caribbean a few weeks ago, so she'll just be able to cruise right in.

I got pictures from Holly today and her progress is remarkable. She's happy the fat is melting away and feeling really good.

I expect both of them to achieve their personal best, which for Tera means 1st place :D

[CalJoe]

I'd love to know exactly how you think an agenda was satisfied (or overall politics) at the Europa, Joe.

The job of the judges should be to compare the athletes based on how they look on the day of the competition. I do feel that a few were placed too high (and low) based on how they have looked at previous contests and that is definitely not right.
I think there was a lot of politics at the Europa. You mentioned in an earlier post and had issue with the fact that the head judge makes the call for the callout without consulation from the rest of the judges. The head judge was from NYC, Palumbo has become a defacto NPC reporter (he's from NYC), Collete is Dave's g/f, Dena was Dave's client, etc. etc.

The judging at IFBB shows has been all together very good over the last few years, with the exception of this fiasco that is the Europa 2006. Is it a coincidence? Somehow I think not. Among other travesties; how in the world could you have been somewhere in the vicinity of 10-12 placings behind Collete in the muscularity round? How can that happen when you have such impressive muscularity?

[Echo]

echo has been stating his opinion about why Debi didnt win because of her Muscle elegance experience...I mean he is so set on this is why she didnt win...i guess i used the wrong words...my question is how do you know for sure this was the reason for her placing...only the judges know and debi and it seems like debi was told she looked to "pro" even though she was trying to get her "pro" card....

Ms. Guns, I am not sure whether you are challenging the rationale for my earlier statements regarding Debi Lazewski's placing at the 2005 Nationals or whether you are offering your own explanation for her placing, as highlighted above. I am trying to respond to your question(s) accurately and not misinterpret them.

So, let's break down what has been discussed so far:

1) It appears that there is a majority opinion that Debi should have won the light-heavyweight class.

2) Most of the people who thought that Debi should have won are puzzled why she didn't.

3)The most common reason offered by those who supported Debi and those who thought Dena should win has been "the judges must have been looking for 'something' that Debi didn't have."

4) Well, what was this 'something' that Debi did not have? What was the missing attribute in Debi that a prospective pro bodybuilder must have? Isn't this contest a pro qualifier? Based upon the forum discussion we have seen, no one has been able to identify what Debi was missing.

5) Therefore, is it so illogical and so unreasonable to conclude that Debi wasn't missing anything?

6) Amanda Dunbar has distinguished herself by indicating that Debi wasn't missing anything, but has instead opined that Debi's problem was that she was too "massive." But, there is a problem with Amanda's argument. If mass was the issue, why would the judges remove Debi from further contention only to turn around and award the overall title to the much more massive Mimi Jabalee? Furthermore, the objectivity of Amanda's argument is compromised by the fact that Mimi is her love interest and domestic partner, (this is not a secret, Amanda has previously disclosed this).

7) Now, you Ms. Guns have come forward and are offering us the explanation that Debi did not earn a pro card because the judges thought that she looked "too much like a pro" bodybuilder. I don't know about you, sistah, but that explanation does not make much sense to me. If you were Debi and the judges gave you that reason what would you say beyond "huh?"

8) In conclusion, is it so ridiculous to consider the possibility that external factors played a role in Debi's placing? As if this has never happened in the NPC/IFBB? Remember, as CalJoe has historically pointed out, this was not the first time that Debi was placed inapropriately low. So my final answer to you, Ms. Guns, is this: believe what you want.

[Amanda Dunbar]

6) Amanda Dunbar has distinguished herself by indicating that Debi wasn't missing anything, but has instead opined that Debi's problem was that she was too "massive." But, there is a problem with Amanda's argument. If mass was the issue, why would the judges remove Debi from further contention only to turn around and award the overall title to the much more massive Mimi Jabalee? Furthermore, the objectivity of Amanda's argument is compromised by the fact that Mimi is her love interest and domestic partner, (this is not a secret, Amanda has previously disclosed this).




First of all, thats not what I said.... It is all about the least amount of flaws. Plain and simple. I could certainly go through a list of reasons why Debi, Dena, and Elena placed where they did and it isn't because of what you are saying. Trust me, I am not jaded by my "love interest" lol. That is ridiculous. I can completely evaluate a physique while being objective. You have taken my statement completely out of context, especially because most of the statements I said about being muscularity, didn't have to do with Debi!

Amanda

[eseiple]

Let me ask this why are we all hung up on last years nationals? Its done, over with...no sense in wasting more time discussing that which will never have a conclusion....Fast Forward to 2006.....its a clean slate....We all know Debi will come in in top shape....and lets see what happens from there. I am going to do my best to give her a run for her money and so will everyone else in the class.....( i got a lot of work ahead of me though....lol)

[Amanda Dunbar]

Exactly Elena. This is getting so repetitive it's not even funny.... No results are going to be changed. Pro cards aren't going to be taken away from 2005.... it's time to move on.

Amanda

[Maxt]

Echo you must realize that Dena Westerfield has distinguished herself very well as the winner of last year's LHWT. Nationals. I understand why she won. That is the message I have been trying to convey to you. It wasn't because Debi did Muscle Elegance but much more as Amanda has described to you. The more streamlined approach to proportion and symmetry with fewer percieved flaws. I don't know if I am totally in support of that view of how bodybuilding should be judged. However if you want to win and you see the trend-you adapt.

[Scott]

Exactly Elena. This is getting so repetitive it's not even funny.... No results are going to be changed. Pro cards aren't going to be taken away from 2005.... it's time to move on.

Amanda

I 2nd that exactly! If someone goes through the process on order to make themselves a judge....its their priveledge to reward the physique that think looks the best on that given night.

[CalJoe]

First of all, thats not what I said.... It is all about the least amount of flaws. Plain and simple. I could certainly go through a list of reasons why Debi, Dena, and Elena placed where they did and it isn't because of what you are saying. Trust me, I am not jaded by my "love interest" lol. That is ridiculous. I can completely evaluate a physique while being objective. You have taken my statement completely out of context, especially because most of the statements I said about being muscularity, didn't have to do with Debi!

Amanda
You did say that size doesn't win anymore, while overlooking the massiveness of Mimi.

[CalJoe]

Echo you must realize that Dena Westerfield has distinguished herself very well as the winner of last year's LHWT. Nationals. I understand why she won. That is the message I have been trying to convey to you. It wasn't because Debi did Muscle Elegance but much more as Amanda has described to you. The more streamlined approach to proportion and symmetry with fewer percieved flaws. I don't know if I am totally in support of that view of how bodybuilding should be judged. However if you want to win and you see the trend-you adapt.
Personally I think Dena had more flaws than Debi did.

[CalJoe]

First of all, thats not what I said.... It is all about the least amount of flaws. Plain and simple. I could certainly go through a list of reasons why Debi, Dena, and Elena placed where they did and it isn't because of what you are saying. Trust me, I am not jaded by my "love interest" lol. That is ridiculous. I can completely evaluate a physique while being objective. You have taken my statement completely out of context, especially because most of the statements I said about being muscularity, didn't have to do with Debi!

Amanda
Least amount of flaws,,hmmmm you mean like Sherry having less flaws than Isabelle?

[Echo]

Attention Forum Members:

Please read Amanda's post #344, dated November 30, 2005. I have copied it in its entirety so that no one can claim that Amanda'a opinions are being taken "out of context."


I must say.... what a show. First, I want to congratulate my baby, Mimi Jabalee. I am soooo proud of her, words do not describe it. She has trained her ass off for 18 years and now, finally put it together to get what she has deserved for a long, long time. She was a very well deserving overall winner and represents our sport with the whole package... amazing physique, beautiful face, and such a professional demeanor. When she decides to take the pro stage, she will do very very well, as she has a pro physique NOW.

In assessing the rest of the show, I'll start w/ the LW's... I was really impressed with carla. Carla really brought the package this year. Tera looked great as well, but damn, Carla brought exactly what they were looking for. You go girl!

MWs.... Hmmm, Norma Nieves... This girl ROCKED! I am so proud of her. I have know her since 2002 when she beat ME at the Southern States! lol. Talk about full circle for her. I'm so happy she is finally a pro.

Shock of the night in the MW was Kaylie Perry!!! What a transformation!!!!! Damn, I'm so happy for her. What a hard worker she is and I am so happy to see that she's now lived part of her dream by stepping ON the national stage. I can't wait to see her next time around.

The DRAMA of the LHWs... BEFORE I START, this is my opinion, so before anyone starts jumping my case, read that I wrote, OPINION. I was AT the show, unlike JOE MESA, who was not...

I'm SHOCKED and a bit appaulled at the class decision. IMO, w/o a doubt it went to Debi. Debi L. had the pro physique THAT NIGHT, hands down. It's not about the 20% factor, this is only about politics. I see no rhyme or reason to how they picked the winner...?

OBJECTIVELY, each person in the top 3 had the same problem with not being small waisted causing more of an issue w/ symmetry. Each of the top 3 have really improved in bringing out their lats and quads a bit to improve the illusion. So without that perfect "X" frame factor involved which is what they are leaning towards, you have to move on to other ways to pick a winner....
Like conditioning, muscularity, as well as the extras (stage presence and feminity). Debi killed everyone in the class with the extras as well as conditioning and muscularity.

Debi L. had this amazing presence about her on stage. She was a truely beautiful bodybuilder up there. She presented the physique that the judges werent ready to reward which is an amazingly well developed physique WITH a pretty face. Hmmm, what a concept??

Dena was smaller, not as hard, and has structural issues... Elena softer than at the USAs and shares the same structural issues due to a thicker waistline. I'm not sure why Elena decided to come in softer because IMO softer doesnt help if your symmetry isn't dead on.

Now onto the HWs. Lots of shockers here.... Mimi ROCKED the class. Hands down. The girl is the NEW NATIONAL CHAMPION!!!! She's busted her ass to get to this point and w/ the help of her trainer, Jeremy from OKC, she really shocked everyone, which I knew would happen all along. I'm sooooooooo happy!!!

Next shocking a bit was the placing of Lora O. and Sheila Bleck.... I find the placings interesting because it shows once again they have (for most decisions) reverted back to "X" frame physiques that are conditioned.

Jody MAY finally brought her killer package. You go girl! You said you were going to do it right this year and you did!!! She was such a huge standout in the HW class. Way to go on the 2nd place finishing. That was a true winning moment up there, regardless of placing. Shes gonna be a pro very soon.

On a side note, I was really shocked to see how BAD the competiveness was backstage. I was SHOCKED at how anti-social and just rude a few people were. We are all female bodybuilders, amateur or pro, there is no reason to have a bad attitude... we're all in this together. What a disappointment it was to see the "cliques" that were there. WOW.....

More to come later.

Amanda
__________________
Amanda Dunbar Official Website (http://www.amandad.com/)

Mimi Jabalee Official Website (http://www.mimijabalee.net/)

[CalJoe]

Attention Forum Members:

Please read Amanda's post #344, dated November 30, 2005. I have copied it in its entirety so that no one can claim that Amanda'a opinions are being taken "out of context."


I must say.... what a show. First, I want to congratulate my baby, Mimi Jabalee. I am soooo proud of her, words do not describe it. She has trained her ass off for 18 years and now, finally put it together to get what she has deserved for a long, long time. She was a very well deserving overall winner and represents our sport with the whole package... amazing physique, beautiful face, and such a professional demeanor. When she decides to take the pro stage, she will do very very well, as she has a pro physique NOW.

In assessing the rest of the show, I'll start w/ the LW's... I was really impressed with carla. Carla really brought the package this year. Tera looked great as well, but damn, Carla brought exactly what they were looking for. You go girl!

MWs.... Hmmm, Norma Nieves... This girl ROCKED! I am so proud of her. I have know her since 2002 when she beat ME at the Southern States! lol. Talk about full circle for her. I'm so happy she is finally a pro.

Shock of the night in the MW was Kaylie Perry!!! What a transformation!!!!! Damn, I'm so happy for her. What a hard worker she is and I am so happy to see that she's now lived part of her dream by stepping ON the national stage. I can't wait to see her next time around.

The DRAMA of the LHWs... BEFORE I START, this is my opinion, so before anyone starts jumping my case, read that I wrote, OPINION. I was AT the show, unlike JOE MESA, who was not...

I'm SHOCKED and a bit appaulled at the class decision. IMO, w/o a doubt it went to Debi. Debi L. had the pro physique THAT NIGHT, hands down. It's not about the 20% factor, this is only about politics. I see no rhyme or reason to how they picked the winner...?

OBJECTIVELY, each person in the top 3 had the same problem with not being small waisted causing more of an issue w/ symmetry. Each of the top 3 have really improved in bringing out their lats and quads a bit to improve the illusion. So without that perfect "X" frame factor involved which is what they are leaning towards, you have to move on to other ways to pick a winner....
Like conditioning, muscularity, as well as the extras (stage presence and feminity). Debi killed everyone in the class with the extras as well as conditioning and muscularity.

Debi L. had this amazing presence about her on stage. She was a truely beautiful bodybuilder up there. She presented the physique that the judges werent ready to reward which is an amazingly well developed physique WITH a pretty face. Hmmm, what a concept??

Dena was smaller, not as hard, and has structural issues... Elena softer than at the USAs and shares the same structural issues due to a thicker waistline. I'm not sure why Elena decided to come in softer because IMO softer doesnt help if your symmetry isn't dead on.

Now onto the HWs. Lots of shockers here.... Mimi ROCKED the class. Hands down. The girl is the NEW NATIONAL CHAMPION!!!! She's busted her ass to get to this point and w/ the help of her trainer, Jeremy from OKC, she really shocked everyone, which I knew would happen all along. I'm sooooooooo happy!!!

Next shocking a bit was the placing of Lora O. and Sheila Bleck.... I find the placings interesting because it shows once again they have (for most decisions) reverted back to "X" frame physiques that are conditioned.

Jody MAY finally brought her killer package. You go girl! You said you were going to do it right this year and you did!!! She was such a huge standout in the HW class. Way to go on the 2nd place finishing. That was a true winning moment up there, regardless of placing. Shes gonna be a pro very soon.

On a side note, I was really shocked to see how BAD the competiveness was backstage. I was SHOCKED at how anti-social and just rude a few people were. We are all female bodybuilders, amateur or pro, there is no reason to have a bad attitude... we're all in this together. What a disappointment it was to see the "cliques" that were there. WOW.....

More to come later.

Amanda
__________________
Amanda Dunbar Official Website (http://www.amandad.com/)

Mimi Jabalee Official Website (http://www.mimijabalee.net/)
Echo, thank you for reaching into the Amanda archives and pulling out this gem ;) . Amanda, thank you so much for clarifying for all of us how Debi L. should have won the LHW class last year at Nationals. Actually, I couldn't have said it better myself. ;) .

[eseiple]

ok...ENOUGH...lets get this thread back on track and discuss the 2006 nationals :) 2005 is IN THE PAST!!!!!!

[Amanda Dunbar]

No kidding Elena........

[gymdiva1222]

oh my freakin' god! please someone listen to Elena...I am glad to know that women's bbing can spur such heated debate but this thread was intended to discuss 2006 natls and who all would/would not/may/may not be there...let's get back on track for those trying to discuss november and leave ATL in 2005...



and now back to your regularly scheduled programming :)

[cbdetroit]

Agreed & Thanks Elena. Now since the North Americans & Canadian Nationals is history now what should we have to expect for this fall in sunny Miami, FL?

I'm right now very curious to know who the real Major players to look out for from the Lightweights to the Heavyweights. Will Huge Bulky Mass prevail over a More Beautifully Detailed Package or vice-versa, you decide?

[Maxt]

The more you look at Dena Westerfield and especially how she looked at the 2006 Europa, the more you see what she is got going for her as far as physique. Quite a lot of the old "Total Package" which so often proves so successful at contests and tends to confound muscularity freaks. It is tough when there are great competitors in a class or a show and only one can win. Dena could really be a future pro champion and Debi Laszewski would be great on the pro stages too, but every year the Nationals will be competitive! So I wouldn't be handing any 2006 titles to anybody just yet-not until they hit the stage. However, if photos tell more than words-Debi Laszeski is doing guest posings and photos from the show I saw, the 2006 NPC Southern States, prove that once again she looks phenomenal and will be a force to be reckoned with?

[cbdetroit]

Like I said no more Hating & reliving 2005, because it's time to move on to 2006 in Sunny Miami so besides Debi, who's going to "bring it" in November?

Just curious and keep it Positive.:)

[gymdiva1222]

Maxt, I have seen some of those pics, too, and yes, she is looking great already...LHWs are going to be stacked to the brim once again this year...I can't wait to see it all again in person!

[cbdetroit]

And yes I do Love both Elena's & Debi's physiques, So Beautiful, Classy & Sexy to the Max period.:)

[hans]

ok...ENOUGH...lets get this thread back on track and discuss the 2006 nationals :) 2005 is IN THE PAST!!!!!!

Exactly. Thanks for moderating Elena. ;)

Hans

[Echo]

Like I said no more Hating & reliving 2005, because it's time to move on to 2006.......

Wait a second CBDetroit!! What do you mean "hating"? I can speak for myself by assuring you that I have absolutely no hate for anyone on this forum... no one.

I agree with Elena to this extent: What happened last year should not be the over-riding thought going into this year's 'Nationals.' But we should not forget about it and make believe it never happened. If this travesty could happen to Debi, it could happen to anyone in our sport. It should never happen again. I don't want to see it happen to any of our athletes, not Elena, not Debi, not Amanda.....no one.

Yes, bodybuilding contests are sometimes tough to judge. Sometimes the judges are faced with equally developed competitors and the decisive factor comes down to aesthetics. Some one has to win, some one has to lose. We accept the decision and hope that the "loser" (there really are no losers in our sport) comes back and tries again next time. We've always done this. And we will continue to do so. There is no hate.

I have great respect for Elena. I mean, how can you not like a lady who chose Rob Zombie's "Living Dead Girl" as posing music at the '02 Nationals. She won me over as the lyrics reached "bring the giant down." But I respectfully believe that Elena is being a little short sighted. She seems to believe that disagreements like the one we have had the last two days can only be negative and devisive.

But out of these debates have come some good ideas. Robin Parker suggested some good ideas about procedural changes in the judging that are worth considering. I had a spirited debate with Ed Pariso on the 'Europa' thread. I suggested that the IFBB waive or reduce sanction fees so that promoters can offer more Pro Women's bodybuilding contests. I feel that if promoters can offer figure contests they can offer Womens bodybuilding contests because the mechanisms are already in place. Ed responded that the IFBB will never go for it. Well guess what? I just learned that Betty will be proposing that very idea at the upcoming Olympia athletes meeting.

There have been disagreements about the scoring of recent contests. Robin, CalJoe, Harry The Hat, myself, and others have been posting and commenting on scoresheets. If I understand correctly, Jim Rockell will propose that the NPC system replace the current, often confusing IFBB pro system of scoring. I don't know if that is the "answer," but my main point is that there are some good things coming out of these debates and as more people are starting to tune in the message is starting to spread.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have to grow our sport. You can't have maximum growth if you are losing people. Do you remember late last year when Elena posted that cryptic message suggesting that she was retiring from bodybuilding competitions? Do you remember how many people were sorry to hear that? Do you remember several months ago when Amanda made a post stating that she was disgusted with the bodybuilding scene and was leaving competition to concentrate on physical therapy and her personal life? We may have had our disagreements, but I don't want our sport to prematurely lose any of these athletes.....at least not until they have been afforded every opportunity to pursue their dreams.

Is there an "echo" out there?

[gymdiva1222]

echo I don't think she was saying you can't debate the issue but rather leave it be for now and use the thread for it's intended purpose of dicussing who all will be up there this year and what we may be looking forward to...several people on the board have already done a great job of offering insight on how some are doing thus far...spirited debate is a must for this and all other sports and I say go for it...but in its own thread...

[eseiple]

Wait a second CBDetroit!! What do you mean "hating"? I can speak for myself by assuring you that I have absolutely no hate for anyone on this forum... no one.

I agree with Elena to this extent: What happened last year should not be the over-riding thought going into this year's 'Nationals.' But we should not forget about it and make believe it never happened. If this travesty could happen to Debi, it could happen to anyone in our sport. It should never happen again. I don't want to see it happen to any of our athletes, not Elena, not Debi, not Amanda.....no one.

Yes, bodybuilding contests are sometimes tough to judge. Sometimes the judges are faced with equally developed competitors and the decisive factor comes down to aesthetics. Some one has to win, some one has to lose. We accept the decision and hope that the "loser" (there really are no losers in our sport) comes back and tries again next time. We've always done this. And we will continue to do so. There is no hate.

I have great respect for Elena. I mean, how can you not like a lady who chose Rob Zombie's "Living Dead Girl" as posing music at the '02 Nationals. She won me over as the lyrics reached "bring the giant down." But I respectfully believe that Elena is being a little short sighted. She seems to believe that disagreements like the one we have had the last two days can only be negative and devisive.

But out of these debates have come some good ideas. Robin Parker suggested some good ideas about procedural changes in the judging that are worth considering. I had a spirited debate with Ed Pariso on the 'Europa' thread. I suggested that the IFBB waive or reduce sanction fees so that promoters can offer more Pro Women's bodybuilding contests. I feel that if promoters can offer figure contests they can offer Womens bodybuilding contests because the mechanisms are already in place. Ed responded that the IFBB will never go for it. Well guess what? I just learned that Betty will be proposing that very idea at the upcoming Olympia athletes meeting.

There have been disagreements about the scoring of recent contests. Robin, CalJoe, Harry The Hat, myself, and others have been posting and commenting on scoresheets. If I understand correctly, Jim Rockell will propose that the NPC system replace the current, often confusing IFBB pro system of scoring. I don't know if that is the "answer," but my main point is that there are some good things coming out of these debates and as more people are starting to tune in the message is starting to spread.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have to grow our sport. You can't have maximum growth if you are losing people. Do you remember late last year when Elena posted that cryptic message suggesting that she was retiring from bodybuilding competitions? Do you remember how many people were sorry to hear that? Do you remember several months ago when Amanda made a post stating that she was disgusted with the bodybuilding scene and was leaving competition to concentrate on physical therapy and her personal life? We may have had our disagreements, but I don't want our sport to prematurely lose any of these athletes.....at least not until they have been afforded every opportunity to pursue their dreams.

Is there an "echo" out there?


ECHO I understand where you are coming from but nothing in these forums will affect the judging and to be honest as a competitor it gets tiresome to constantly read the debates of the same thing over and over again...where is the positive ? where is the motivation ? thats what this thread should be about as right now its getting depressing.

[Maxt]

Echo I am starting to think you don't even lift weights? Where do you find the time? Obviously you need to prove your point and make your arguments but sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. Now I think you are making some arguments that don't work? I absolutely agree Elena that positivity and inspiration are what THIS place is all about. If you are getting back into competing I am going to root for you too because you have been one of the great amateurs for more than a few years without a doubt so keep on pumping that iron and posing down, you have got what it takes no doubt-you can do it.

[eseiple]

FYI: My message about retiring was true. I thought about it but it had nothing to do with the judging or me being frustrated with the sport. It was due to personal reasons.

And I look at it this way, retire or not retire...does it matter? I do this sport for me becuase I love to compete. If I get my pro card what changes??? Nothing. I will go home after the show, take Monday off and be back in my office on Tuesday. I don't look for FBB to be my meal ticket. I don't look for contracts, endorsements or big money. I have a great job that I LOVE and I love being part of the normal working world. I am not going to change my life if I get a pro card or if I don't get a pro card....thats the bottom line.


Last year I competed for all the wrong reasons, this year I compete for me and me alone. Win or Lose....won't change who I am. I allow myself to enjoy life now. I don't miss out on family events or let it affect my relationships. Bodybuilding became so big in my life evrything else went on the back burner. I needed a wake up call and I am glad I got it. Everything is back in perspective. I had to have everything taken away from me in order for me to prioritize. I pushed away friends, family and most important people that I loved...all for what? I had to sit back and look at the big picture...And now God has given me a second chance...He has given me a second wind. ANd i plan on doing it right this time around. I don't let it consume me as it has in the past...and yes if it means I have to skip a training day to be with my niece on her birthday....I will be at her birthday.

Don't let bodybuilding become a one way street where it takes takes takes...and never gives back! Keep things in check and in perspective...makes the experience that much more enjoyable!

[Maxt]

Oh well we need more female judges. I am sure you will make a good one.

[Amanda Dunbar]

FYI 2: I never said I was leaving the sport. What I was talking about was not competing in 2006 because I moved to Atlanta and needed to study for my PTA licensure exam (which I am taking this friday!) and would compete the following year, if I choose to. Priorities, you know?

Amanda

[Maxt]

Like I said no more Hating & reliving 2005, because it's time to move on to 2006 in Sunny Miami so besides Debi, who's going to "bring it" in November?

Just curious and keep it Positive.:)CBD the Mototr City Madman, you pose a good question. Who else will be in Miami? Well reports are Jody May. Now who else from the North Americans and USA's can maintain competion physiques and bring it in November. That is what is tough. You bring it in July, you bring it in September then you BRING IT in November once again? That means you must really really want it. Out of that North American lineup I'd say that you have Lora Ottenad, Dr. Michelle Neil and Beverly DiRenzo. They are still great one of them may try for it in November? Maybe Isabelle Turell or Angie Salvagno will challenge Debi Laszewski in the Light Heavies? Finally maybe Yamile Marrero who's a hometown Miami girl will get into this? I liked her better as a Heavyweight with her height and muscle mass it is tough to diet down to light heavyweight and then go for muscularity and symmetry comparisons against shorter ladies. I think height works for good or bad in some of these comparisons, do you?

[Maxt]

FYI 2: I never said I was leaving the sport. What I was talking about was not competing in 2005 because I moved to Atlanta and needed to study for my PTA licensure exam (which I am taking this friday!) and would compete the following year, if I choose to. Priorities, you know?

AmandaGood luck with that PTA Licensure Exam Amanda. I am definitely glad you are not retiring. You are too young and have too many positive aspects to contribute to womens bodybuilding. Once you get your priorities straight I am sure that you will BRING IT!

[Michelle Brent]

Amen Elena!!!! It was surprised to get 2nd at the NA, but it was looking at my son in his Army fatigues(and my husband ;>))walking towards when I was coming from backstage that lifted my heart!!(Kyle will be deployed to Irag next month). I had my reality check then.!!

[mikewill]

FYI: My message about retiring was true. I thought about it but it had nothing to do with the judging or me being frustrated with the sport. It was due to personal reasons.

Well it's sad news for sure Elena, you were an outstanding competitor! All the right reasons tho!

I'm not sure what your involvement will be in the future but I hope that you'll be around the sport in one capacity or another. You've always kept such a level head from the messages I've read from you on the board.

[cbdetroit]

FYI: My message about retiring was true. I thought about it but it had nothing to do with the judging or me being frustrated with the sport. It was due to personal reasons.

And I look at it this way, retire or not retire...does it matter? I do this sport for me becuase I love to compete. If I get my pro card what changes??? Nothing. I will go home after the show, take Monday off and be back in my office on Tuesday. I don't look for FBB to be my meal ticket. I don't look for contracts, endorsements or big money. I have a great job that I LOVE and I love being part of the normal working world. I am not going to change my life if I get a pro card or if I don't get a pro card....thats the bottom line.


Last year I competed for all the wrong reasons, this year I compete for me and me alone. Win or Lose....won't change who I am. I allow myself to enjoy life now. I don't miss out on family events or let it affect my relationships. Bodybuilding became so big in my life evrything else went on the back burner. I needed a wake up call and I am glad I got it. Everything is back in perspective. I had to have everything taken away from me in order for me to prioritize. I pushed away friends, family and most important people that I loved...all for what? I had to sit back and look at the big picture...And now God has given me a second chance...He has given me a second wind. ANd i plan on doing it right this time around. I don't let it consume me as it has in the past...and yes if it means I have to skip a training day to be with my niece on her birthday....I will be at her birthday.

Don't let bodybuilding become a one way street where it takes takes takes...and never gives back! Keep things in check and in perspective...makes the experience that much more enjoyable!I Love your positive thoughts and vibe Elena like I said before, you'll make a Beautiful IFBB pro period. And don't stop what you're doing Elena because it works period.:)

[mikewill]

What exactly is a PTA Licensure Exam Amanda?

[eseiple]

TIME OUT!!! LOL I AM NOT RETIRED...I was saying the reason I thought about retirement was etc etc etc...I am 8 weeks out from the NATIONALS!

[Scott]

What exactly is a PTA Licensure Exam Amanda?

Physical Therapy Assistant

[cbdetroit]

CBD the Mototr City Madman, you pose a good question. Who else will be in Miami? Well reports are Jody May. Now who else from the North Americans and USA's can maintain competion physiques and bring it in November. That is what is tough. You bring it in July, you bring it in September then you BRING IT in November once again? That means you must rally really want it. Out of that North American lineup I'd say that you have Lora Ottenad, Dr. Michelle Neil and Beverly DiRenzo. They are still great one of them may try for it in November? Maybe Isabelle Turell or Angie Salvagno will challenge Debi Laszewski in the Light Heavies? Finally maybe Yamile Marrero who's a hometown Miami girl will get into this? I liked her better as a Heavyweight with her height and muscle mass it is tough to diet down to light heavyweight and then go for muscularity and symmetry comparisons against shorter ladies. I think height works for good or bad in some of these comparisons, do you?Well Maxt those are some Great choices because at the North Americans: Lora, Dr. McNeil and Beverly looked Great. These 3 along with a couple more of my favorites Jody May, Andrea Gahan and Gerri Deach will defintely take Heavyweight class to a Higher level.

As for Yamile's look, I think she look Great either way but to me I think that she's had Greater success as a Heavyweight and I'll have to use her appearances from 2003 NPC Nationals as well as the 2004 NPC USAs as some Great examples of Beautiful she looked just so we could have a visual reference on how she might look by then.

As far as how the Light-Heavies goes, I was impressed on how Angie looked at the USAs as well as how Isabelle looked at the 2003 Excalibur & the 2006 North Americans as both a Heavyweight & a Light-Heavyweight. These 2 along with Debi & Elena will be a force to be reckoned with in that division. The same with Holly Geersen's physique of whom I thought she looked Fantastic either way as a Middleweight, Light-Heavyweight & even a Heavyweight period.

Excellent Symmetry & Proportion on her and the rest of the Ladies who are mentioned that may be competing. But I'm also curious Maxt if either you, Jasons805 or Echo would know who to expect to be dominating in the Middleweights as well? Just curious.:)

[mikewill]

TIME OUT!!! LOL I AM NOT RETIRED...I was saying the reason I thought about retirement was etc etc etc...I am 8 weeks out from the NATIONALS!

Ya see that, I was trying to retire you before your time. I knew you were going to do the Nationals, but it sounded like you might be done after that. Anyway I'll dry my tears and get on with my day.

[edoardo]

TIME OUT!!! LOL I AM NOT RETIRED...I was saying the reason I thought about retirement was etc etc etc...I am 8 weeks out from the NATIONALS!
GO Elena!!!

[cbdetroit]

Like I said, I'm fired up and motivated to see how the suspense is going to be building up for this contest in the fall which should be Very Good and hopefully much better than last year.:)

[CalJoe]

Like I said, I'm fired up and motivated to see how the suspense is going to be building up for this contest in the fall which should be Very Good and hopefully much better than last year.:)
I think it is going to be a better show than last year.

[cbdetroit]

Wait a second CBDetroit!! What do you mean "hating"? I can speak for myself by assuring you that I have absolutely no hate for anyone on this forum... no one.

I agree with Elena to this extent: What happened last year should not be the over-riding thought going into this year's 'Nationals.' But we should not forget about it and make believe it never happened. If this travesty could happen to Debi, it could happen to anyone in our sport. It should never happen again. I don't want to see it happen to any of our athletes, not Elena, not Debi, not Amanda.....no one.

Yes, bodybuilding contests are sometimes tough to judge. Sometimes the judges are faced with equally developed competitors and the decisive factor comes down to aesthetics. Some one has to win, some one has to lose. We accept the decision and hope that the "loser" (there really are no losers in our sport) comes back and tries again next time. We've always done this. And we will continue to do so. There is no hate.

I have great respect for Elena. I mean, how can you not like a lady who chose Rob Zombie's "Living Dead Girl" as posing music at the '02 Nationals. She won me over as the lyrics reached "bring the giant down." But I respectfully believe that Elena is being a little short sighted. She seems to believe that disagreements like the one we have had the last two days can only be negative and devisive.

But out of these debates have come some good ideas. Robin Parker suggested some good ideas about procedural changes in the judging that are worth considering. I had a spirited debate with Ed Pariso on the 'Europa' thread. I suggested that the IFBB waive or reduce sanction fees so that promoters can offer more Pro Women's bodybuilding contests. I feel that if promoters can offer figure contests they can offer Womens bodybuilding contests because the mechanisms are already in place. Ed responded that the IFBB will never go for it. Well guess what? I just learned that Betty will be proposing that very idea at the upcoming Olympia athletes meeting.

There have been disagreements about the scoring of recent contests. Robin, CalJoe, Harry The Hat, myself, and others have been posting and commenting on scoresheets. If I understand correctly, Jim Rockell will propose that the NPC system replace the current, often confusing IFBB pro system of scoring. I don't know if that is the "answer," but my main point is that there are some good things coming out of these debates and as more people are starting to tune in the message is starting to spread.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have to grow our sport. You can't have maximum growth if you are losing people. Do you remember late last year when Elena posted that cryptic message suggesting that she was retiring from bodybuilding competitions? Do you remember how many people were sorry to hear that? Do you remember several months ago when Amanda made a post stating that she was disgusted with the bodybuilding scene and was leaving competition to concentrate on physical therapy and her personal life? We may have had our disagreements, but I don't want our sport to prematurely lose any of these athletes.....at least not until they have been afforded every opportunity to pursue their dreams.

Is there an "echo" out there?No offense Echo, & respect your knowledge as well as passion for the sport and I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone in particular. Now I'm not putting Amanda on a pedestal but this is some of the same drama that's been displayed at the 2005 USAs & Charlotte Pro Show Threads.

Plus if you guys disagree with her then, that's fine but this thread's ruined over some unescessary crap for nothing if you guys want to argue than start up another thread and take it over there. It's like I've said over there I hate it when I start a thread folks got Hating, Name calling & Trash Talking for nothing.

Because of the Drama that happened over the weekend, another 2006 Nationals thread was created and to be quite frank I compliment Elena for doing it because you got to let it go, it's in the past move forward and let's find out what to expect for this fall end of story.

[CalJoe]

Echo I am starting to think you don't even lift weights? Where do you find the time? Obviously you need to prove your point and make your arguments but sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. Now I think you are making some arguments that don't work? I absolutely agree Elena that positivity and inspiration are what THIS place is all about. If you are getting back into competing I am going to root for you too because you have been one of the great amateurs for more than a few years without a doubt so keep on pumping that iron and posing down, you have got what it takes no doubt-you can do it.
Echo won his class at Master's Nationals a few years ago you jackass!

[CalJoe]

No offense Echo, & respect your knowledge as well as passion for the sport and I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone in particular. Now I'm not putting Amanda on a pedestal but this is some of the same drama that's been displayed at the 2005 USAs & Charlotte Pro Show Threads.

Plus if you guys disagree with her then, that's fine but this thread's ruined over some unescessary crap for nothing if you guys want to argue than start up another thread and take it over there. It's like I've said over there I hate it when I start a thread folks got Hating, Name calling & Trash Talking for nothing.

Because of the Drama that happened over the weekend, another 2006 Nationals thread was created and to be quite frank I compliment Elena for doing it because you got to let it go, it's in the past move forward and let's find out what to expect for this fall end of story.
That's all find CB, but you guys seem to look the other way when Amanda does the trash talking. I have seen it countless times. I guess she's one of your heroes, so she's immune from your rules of conduct.

[cbdetroit]

That's all find CB, but you guys seem to look the other way when Amanda does the trash talking. I have seen it countless times. I guess she's one of your heroes, so she's immune from your rules of conduct.Hey CalJoe, I'm over it for now because there's more to life than just to make a big whoopeedoo over nothing. Mostly everyone else has moved on, so have I Peace.:)

[CalJoe]

Hey CalJoe, I'm over it for now because there's more to life than just to make a big whoopeedoo over nothing. Mostly everyone else has moved on, so have I Peace.:)
It's a nice thought, but you haven't addressed my comment.

[cbdetroit]

Well CalJoe I haven't noticed anything since my return except for rehashing the past instead of focusing on the future.

But other than that CalJoe, you also have Good knowledge as well as passion for the sport from what I've noticed over at the Europa Show thread and I'm agree with you FBBHubby & NPCIN in regards to who trains much harder Between Women Bodybuilders & Figure Women.

Which is why I've started a thread over at General Discussion Section about the Differences between Women's Bodybuilding Fitness & Figure so I'm looking forward to hear your imput on the subject. :)

[CalJoe]

Well CalJoe I haven't noticed anything since my return except for rehashing the past instead of focusing on the future.

But other than that CalJoe, you also have Good knowledge as well as passion for the sport from what I've noticed over at the Europa Show thread and I'm agree with you FBBHubby & NPCIN in regards to who trains much harder Between Women Bodybuilders & Figure Women.

Which is why I've started a thread over at General Discussion Section about the Differences between Women's Bodybuilding Fitness & Figure so I'm looking forward to hear your imput on the subject. :)
I'm not rehashing, but rather you are avoiding a question. It's all perspective you see.

Yes, you can say I have passion for the sport, but it's a passion for what it's supposed to be more than what it is :) .

[Procarri]

Least amount of flaws,,hmmmm you mean like Sherry having less flaws than Isabelle?

Were you at the North Americans?

[Echo]

FYI 2: I never said I was leaving the sport. What I was talking about was not competing in 2006 because I moved to Atlanta and needed to study for my PTA licensure exam (which I am taking this friday!) and would compete the following year, if I choose to. Priorities, you know?

Amanda

EXHIBIT A

Post by Amanda Dunbar on Muscle Mayhem, November 2005

RE: Elena Seiple

Sue, with much respect to you because I do respect the longevity you've had in this sport, as well as muscle maturity you have on your physique.... but you have no idea to what you are talking about with Elena.

I've know her for several years as you have and if you only knew..... Humility and respect is NOT what elena is about and that was quite evident at the USA which you didn't get to see because you werent in my room, backstage, out to eat, or anywhere near her and I that entire wknd to see the REAL side of Elena... nor were you near her every day she sent competitive emails to me, comparing physiques on a daily basis, placing her photos side by side to me... I could go on and on. I've seen the real elena and it saddens me more than I can even explain to you. And Sue, if you knew Elena THAT well you'd know how to spell her name correctly. You havent seen Elena full circle, and I wish I had seen it a LOOOONG time ago. You haven't because she doesnt feel threatened by you.

I have every right to evaluate anyones physique and make whatever comment I may. It's true with what I'm saying, until people realize what the judges on the national level are looking for, many people will not go any further and just continue to do more damage to themselves instead of helping themself. Its sad to see faces and bodies ruined, year after year due to excess and obsession. I do not live for bodybuilding and if anything am barely a fan of it at this point. The OCD disgusts me because it ruins so much of peoples lives.

I do this as a hobby and honestly couldn't care if I ever compete again, much less if I should or shouldnt make a valid statement. Take it or leave it, I only speak the truth. Most people just dont want to hear it. Thats what is sad.
Take care,
Amanda
__________________
Amanda Dunbar Official Website
http://www.amandad.com/menu/banners/amandabanner.jpg

[Echo]

FYI 2: I never said I was leaving the sport. What I was talking about was not competing in 2006 because I moved to Atlanta and needed to study for my PTA licensure exam (which I am taking this friday!) and would compete the following year, if I choose to. Priorities, you know?

Amanda

Exhibit B

Post by Amanda Dunbar on FTV Forum, November 8, 2005

LOL. glad i'm NOT competing this time around. I have no desire to compete at this point or anytime soon. I'd rather be a supporter than anything. Especially for this show. Mimi will win. No bets needed. I'm very confident on this. Going to see her again Thurs... I hope the other girls come in SHREDDED. :) Mimi has the package. Jeremy, her trainer, has done a damn good job w/ her this year!

Amanda
__________________
Amanda Dunbar Official Website (http://www.amandad.com/)

Mimi Jabalee Official Website (http://www.mimijabalee.net/)

[Echo]

Dear Forum Members:

Based upon your interpretation of Exhibit 'A' and Exhibit 'B', and comparing them to what I stated in my post (captioned below), do you believe that I made an untruthful statement about Amanda? Does anyone believe that anything I said in reference to Amanda in that post was unfair or unkind?


Ladies and Gentlemen, we have to grow our sport. You can't have maximum growth if you are losing people. Do you remember late last year when Elena posted that cryptic message suggesting that she was retiring from bodybuilding competitions? Do you remember how many people were sorry to hear that? Do you remember several months ago when Amanda made a post stating that she was disgusted with the bodybuilding scene and was leaving competition to concentrate on physical therapy and her personal life? We may have had our disagreements, but I don't want our sport to prematurely lose any of these athletes.....at least not until they have been afforded every opportunity to pursue their dreams.

[Echo]

NPC Women's National Bodybuilding Championships

Who will it be?

In this corner, we have Debi Lazewski !!!!!!

http://www.musclewomen.net/Debi/Pics/Debi3012.jpg


In this corner, we have Kristi Hawkins!!!

http://www.kristyhawkins.com/images/mainimages/home.png


In this corner, we have Elena Seiple!!!!!

http://www.elenaseiple.com/photos/elena03.jpg


In this corner, we have Angie Salvagno!!!!

http://www.fbbproject.com/Angie/Pics/Angie1601.jpg

Or, could it be someone else, some unheralded lady, busting her ass in a basement Gym!!!!

Go ahead forum members, make our day! Post a picture of your favorite(s) for the National Championships. Or, just post a post, on the ORIGINAL Nationals Bodybuilding thread!!!

There is free speech on the ORIGINAL Nationals thread. Unlike the Islamic Republic of Iran, you can say what you want! You can talk "girl-talk, "guy talk," or even "shmoe-talk." There is no statement to bold, no prediction to brash. We are united as bodybuilders, fearless of truth, promoters of Women!

[Echo]

Seriously, do you mean to say that Kristy and Elena will be going up against each other in the NPCs?

That is such an insanely hard choice for me. I think they are both great!

I certainly hope they will win there divisons (ie light heavy weight and Heavyweight) but there's no way I could choose between them.


There's so many choices!
-Jim Carrey
The Truman Show

Yes, Numenlad, if everyone comes in their best shape it could be a very tough choice, indeed. I am hoping that the judges take a little more time, and carefully compare and scrutinize each competitor. They deserve that. All of them work so very hard.

[eseiple]

Can i ask why you post the OLDEST pic of me competing? LOL that pic is from 2003 at least post a decent one.....

[eseiple]

EXHIBIT A

Post by Amanda Dunbar on Muscle Mayhem, November 2005

RE: Elena Seiple

Sue, with much respect to you because I do respect the longevity you've had in this sport, as well as muscle maturity you have on your physique.... but you have no idea to what you are talking about with Elena.

I've know her for several years as you have and if you only knew..... Humility and respect is NOT what elena is about and that was quite evident at the USA which you didn't get to see because you werent in my room, backstage, out to eat, or anywhere near her and I that entire wknd to see the REAL side of Elena... nor were you near her every day she sent competitive emails to me, comparing physiques on a daily basis, placing her photos side by side to me... I could go on and on. I've seen the real elena and it saddens me more than I can even explain to you. And Sue, if you knew Elena THAT well you'd know how to spell her name correctly. You havent seen Elena full circle, and I wish I had seen it a LOOOONG time ago. You haven't because she doesnt feel threatened by you.

I have every right to evaluate anyones physique and make whatever comment I may. It's true with what I'm saying, until people realize what the judges on the national level are looking for, many people will not go any further and just continue to do more damage to themselves instead of helping themself. Its sad to see faces and bodies ruined, year after year due to excess and obsession. I do not live for bodybuilding and if anything am barely a fan of it at this point. The OCD disgusts me because it ruins so much of peoples lives.

I do this as a hobby and honestly couldn't care if I ever compete again, much less if I should or shouldnt make a valid statement. Take it or leave it, I only speak the truth. Most people just dont want to hear it. Thats what is sad.
Take care,
Amanda
__________________
Amanda Dunbar Official Website
http://www.amandad.com/menu/banners/amandabanner.jpg


Can I ask what you are tryig to accomplish by posting this bull? What does it get you and why do you have to bring up the past? This to me is just ridiculous and unnecessary .

Last year I have admitted I MADE MISTAKES....I know that I took from AMANDA the ability for her to enjoy her win at the USA...Amanda and I have settled that and have moved on yet you all need to put this puppy to rest. I understand why Amanda said what she said about me and if you knew me then you may have said the same thing...thus the reason I took a step back to get my self back together and level headed....and I realize the reason you posting this has nothing to do with that part of the post...

However, if feel the need to go back and pull every post someone has said in order to fuel your dislike for someone don't do it here. You are just stirring a pot that has since simmered and been put to rest. We all have said things in the past and then changed our mind. In the heat of the moment we make decisions and later reflect and may perhaps pursue different avenues. Haven't you ever changed your mind? I did...i thought I was retiring last year and look here I am competing in 8 weeks.

You have a beef with Amanda that is quite evident...take it offline. Don't air your dirty laundry here at the expense of others. Have some class and take care of this directly with her if you have a problem. But don't you DARE try to pull something like this again.

I am digusted with the fact you are feeling the need to post this stuff and bring it back up. It reminds me why I stopped posting for so long. People hide behind screen names and its easy to be tough when no one knows who you are. I realize you did this prob to piss off Amanda...but you have crossed the line and have PISSED ME OFF!

[eseiple]

GENE or whoever isa MOD of this board I am asking you to remove the derrogatory and uncessary bull that is being brought back up on this thread....It is uncessary and uncalled for .

[cbdetroit]

No offense Echo, this is the type of drama that I'm talking about.:( Now do you see why Elena had to do what she had to do. Just let it go or just go start another thread if you want to bring up the past. This thread should be about "The 2006 Nationals" not He Said, She Said. I've already moved on, have you? :confused:

You've done the right thing when you've came out with the "When Pigs Fly" thread after what's been said over at The General's "Flex swimsuit edition". And everyone else leave it alone and follow Elena's lead. This is [B][U]"The 2006 NPC Nationals" thread[B][U]not a witch hunt/crucifying thread.

Ok Elena go ahead lead the way & take this thread back to a more optimistic & peaceful level the way it was originally supposed to be, Thanks. Peace.:)

[CalJoe]

Were you at the North Americans?
Please don't think I'm being sarcastic about Sherry winning, because that is very far from the truth. I wish I was at the show, because I am so happy Sherry won. If the judges picked Sherry, they must have felt that she looked better and had fewer flaws. I always hear from certain members in this forum about how the fewer flaws wins. That must have been the case in Sherry's win, and good for her.

[CalJoe]

Can i ask why you post the OLDEST pic of me competing? LOL that pic is from 2003 at least post a decent one.....
THAT'S what I'm talking about Elena!!! Good luck in Miami.

[Echo]

Can i ask why you post the OLDEST pic of me competing? LOL that pic is from 2003 at least post a decent one.....

A stage picture from the 2005 USA collection was exactly what I wanted to post. Unfortunately, the ones I found as well as the ones you posted above are copy protected. Therefore, I could not get them to appear on the screen. If you can provide a non-protected photo that I can paste I will use it to replace the existing photo in the post.

In am also unsatisfied with the photo of Angie. I wanted to post stage shots from 2005 for all the competitors. I copied and pasted the best available shot. If anyone has a good stage shot of Angie, please post it in non-protected form and I will replace that one too.

And, finally, I am asking for an open call for all forum readers to post a picture of their favorite pictures of athletes most likely to enter the Nationals this year. Or, if you know a newcomer to the contest who we should know about, kindly post that picture too.

[CalJoe]

Can I ask what you are tryig to accomplish by posting this bull? What does it get you and why do you have to bring up the past? This to me is just ridiculous and unnecessary .

Last year I have admitted I MADE MISTAKES....I know that I took from AMANDA the ability for her to enjoy her win at the USA...Amanda and I have settled that and have moved on yet you all need to put this puppy to rest. I understand why Amanda said what she said about me and if you knew me then you may have said the same thing...thus the reason I took a step back to get my self back together and level headed....and I realize the reason you posting this has nothing to do with that part of the post...

However, if feel the need to go back and pull every post someone has said in order to fuel your dislike for someone don't do it here. You are just stirring a pot that has since simmered and been put to rest. We all have said things in the past and then changed our mind. In the heat of the moment we make decisions and later reflect and may perhaps pursue different avenues. Haven't you ever changed your mind? I did...i thought I was retiring last year and look here I am competing in 8 weeks.

You have a beef with Amanda that is quite evident...take it offline. Don't air your dirty laundry here at the expense of others. Have some class and take care of this directly with her if you have a problem. But don't you DARE try to pull something like this again.

I am digusted with the fact you are feeling the need to post this stuff and bring it back up. It reminds me why I stopped posting for so long. People hide behind screen names and its easy to be tough when no one knows who you are. I realize you did this prob to piss off Amanda...but you have crossed the line and have PISSED ME OFF!
I understand why you might feeling like this Elena, but I also think a lot of people are pissed with the messenger instead of the message. I truly believe that Echo wouldn't bother to bring some of these posts into the forum were it not for the way Amanda says things to leave herself open. If she didn't do a 180degree turn in evaluating Debi's not winning the LHW class last year (and she did blatantly contradict herself), I don't think Echo would have even bothered. Amanda, as Echo pointed out in re-posting Amanda's original post, had nothing but the highest praise for Debi's physique, and displayed dissapointment that Debi didn't win last year. Somewhere along the line, Amanda must have become friends with Dena through Collete, and so she changes her tune about Debi, callously pointing out that Debi shouldn't have won because she was too "massive", in effect stabbing Debi in the back. Amanda would have been better of leaving her hypocritical opinion to herself, especially since it's baseless considering that Mimi was easily the most massive competitor at that show.

I just think Echo is pointing out Amanda's dual nature (depending on whether you're her friend at that moment). I know a lot of people have their feathers ruffled about it, but I don't see anyone getting worked up on behalf of Debi for what Amanda said. Now why is that?

[Tre]

Wow, what a weird twist to this thread.

I never heard Amanda say she was 'leaving' bodybuilding. As far as I knew (and we talk a few times a year), following her win in 2005, she did not plan to compete 'for a while' in order to focus on other things like school, work, and life.

Likewise, I never heard Elena say that she was 'retiring' from bodybuilding either. I think I read it from fans on Mayhem and some of the schmoe sites, but never heard ELENA say anything to that effect. After a huge show, as a competitor, it's only natural to take a step back and evaluate things. Everyone should be allowed that consideration without the fans jumping to their ridiculous "Oh my god!" conclusions.

That is all.

[eseiple]

I understand why you might feeling like this Elena, but I also think a lot of people are pissed with the messenger instead of the message. I truly believe that Echo wouldn't bother to bring some of these posts into the forum were it not for the way Amanda says things to leave herself open. If she didn't do a 180degree turn in evaluating Debi's not winning the LHW class last year (and she did blatantly contradict herself), I don't think Echo would have even bothered. Amanda, as Echo pointed out in re-posting Amanda's original post, had nothing but the highest praise for Debi's physique, and displayed dissapointment that Debi didn't win last year. Somewhere along the line, Amanda must have become friends with Dena through Collete, and so she changes her tune about Debi, callously pointing out that Debi shouldn't have won because she was too "massive", in effect stabbing Debi in the back. Amanda would have been better of leaving her hypocritical opinion to herself, especially since it's baseless considering that Mimi was easily the most massive competitor at that show.

I just think Echo is pointing out Amanda's dual nature (depending on whether you're her friend at that moment). I know a lot of people have their feathers ruffled about it, but I don't see anyone getting worked up on behalf of Debi for what Amanda said. Now why is that?

My annoyance is with the fact that people change thier tunes...IT HAPPENS. I personally don't see why the debate must go on...it could have gone either way. But I am annoyed with the fact he is posting things that have NO BUSINESS being reposted. Have some tact and perhaps pull just the sentence in question out or what not...but all he is doing is stirring a pot that does not need stirring.

And nothing against Amanda, but who cares is she likes Debi today or Debi yesterday or not at all....WHO CARES. does it matter? Does it change the outcome? What does it matter what she said in the past or today? Does it change ANYTHING? NOOOO!

The point is if you like DEBI GREAT ....then cheer her on ...root for her. If you like ME great do the same...and if you like Angie root for ANGIE...but your likeing someone does not affect how a show is judged, the outcome or what not.

NO MATTER WHO WINS A SHOW....EVERY SINGLE girl has fans and of those fans each girls fans will say THEY SHOULD HAVE WON! That does not mean they should win. The job of the fan is to love the girl they are rooting for depsite how they place. But sometimes fans take it too far. NO ONE IS RIGHT when it comes to BB and no one is WRONG as far who should have placed where as it is all based upon opinion THE ONLY OPINIONS THAT MATTER are the 12 JUDGES on the JUDGING PANEL. Everyone has a different taste. Heck there are people taht think I look THE BEST at 160 pounds and others when RIPPED UP . Some think I look good when SOFTER ON STAGE some like my HARDER LOOK... The point I am trying to make is that we sit here and argue over who should have won ( for once Id like to see a show where someone didn't get "screwed"... i hate when people say they got screwed...oye vey) No one will EVER agree on the winner of any show because not everyone has the same tastes.

Debi looked great, dena looked great...it could have gone either way. I prefer Debi's physique but my prefernce doesn't matter. The 12 judges preference is the only one that does. So us sitting here going to battle over something so stupid is just pointless. If you want to make a difference....start judging...and become a NATIONAL judge....then you can have a valid say.

[Maxt]

Debi looked great, dena looked great...it could have gone either way. I prefer Debi's physique but my prefernce doesn't matter. That is pretty much my thinking as well. At first I thought: "oh maybe Debi should have won"?....mmmmmm... "She looks so good." Then it sunk in and I took a look at Dena and thought "oh she is really good-in fact she made improvements." Even more so as a pro-look how good she looked at the Europa! That second place was very well deserved. She almost won and from what I know she is training hard for the Ms. Olympia. Plus: I am adapting my thinking as much as I can to any trend I see in judging because what really matters as to whoever wins or loses is indeed what those judges think?

[Tre]

The show-to-show judging inconsistencies are very difficult for many competitors to deal with. We accept that.

But, it's also difficult for the hardcore fans of women's bodybuilding. Sure, one can say that fan opinions "don't matter", but remember that - in many cases - we're talking about people who live and die for their favorite competitors.

Like it or not, the obsessive nature of bodybuilding includes both the competitors and their fans.

But even if we (the fans) were not obsessed with our favorites, the fact of the matter is that people love controversy. I absolutely believe that every winner should be allowed to enjoy her/his time in the sun, but at some point, those who disagreed with the decision should be allowed to have their say as well.

Do we have to agree at some point to move on and to let the past be the past? Yes, but I don't necessarily have a problem with people who choose not to forget.

That being said, I do agree that people should be allowed to change their minds or to have a different perspective on something 9 months after it happens than they did in the moment. Furthermore, they should not be harshly criticized for adopting a different perspective after-the-fact.

Echo - I generally like a lot of what you post, but I do not like your suggestion that people should not be allowed to change their minds (without being crucified for it).

That is all.

[CalJoe]

My annoyance is with the fact that people change thier tunes...IT HAPPENS. I personally don't see why the debate must go on...it could have gone either way. But I am annoyed with the fact he is posting things that have NO BUSINESS being reposted. Have some tact and perhaps pull just the sentence in question out or what not...but all he is doing is stirring a pot that does not need stirring.

And nothing against Amanda, but who cares is she likes Debi today or Debi yesterday or not at all....WHO CARES. does it matter? Does it change the outcome? What does it matter what she said in the past or today? Does it change ANYTHING? NOOOO!

The point is if you like DEBI GREAT ....then cheer her on ...root for her. If you like ME great do the same...and if you like Angie root for ANGIE...but your likeing someone does not affect how a show is judged, the outcome or what not.

NO MATTER WHO WINS A SHOW....EVERY SINGLE girl has fans and of those fans each girls fans will say THEY SHOULD HAVE WON! That does not mean they should win. The job of the fan is to love the girl they are rooting for depsite how they place. But sometimes fans take it too far. NO ONE IS RIGHT when it comes to BB and no one is WRONG as far who should have placed where as it is all based upon opinion THE ONLY OPINIONS THAT MATTER are the 12 JUDGES on the JUDGING PANEL. Everyone has a different taste. Heck there are people taht think I look THE BEST at 160 pounds and others when RIPPED UP . Some think I look good when SOFTER ON STAGE some like my HARDER LOOK... The point I am trying to make is that we sit here and argue over who should have won ( for once Id like to see a show where someone didn't get "screwed"... i hate when people say they got screwed...oye vey) No one will EVER agree on the winner of any show because not everyone has the same tastes.

Debi looked great, dena looked great...it could have gone either way. I prefer Debi's physique but my prefernce doesn't matter. The 12 judges preference is the only one that does. So us sitting here going to battle over something so stupid is just pointless. If you want to make a difference....start judging...and become a NATIONAL judge....then you can have a valid say.
The point is not whether people change their minds or not. There is a difference between changing your mind and changing your mind while bashing someone, and that is what Amanda did whether you want to recognize it or not. It's one thing for a fan or a journalist to take a shot at a competitor, but when one competitor takes a shot at another it is unprofessional and uncalled for.....PERIOD.

As for judging, it is an exercise in conformity with little to no room for individual opinion. If you fall outside what they want you to do you will be cast out. I have never had an interest, nor would I ever remotely entertain the notion of judging, and if you don't mind I'll continue to have my opinions on shows whether regardless of whether I judge or not. Besides, I don't need to be a judge to figure out what's happening onstage.

[Amanda Dunbar]

The point is not whether people change their minds or not. There is a difference between changing your mind and changing your mind while bashing someone, and that is what Amanda did whether you want to recognize it or not. It's one thing for a fan or a journalist to take a shot at a competitor, but when one competitor takes a shot at another it is unprofessional and uncalled for.....PERIOD.

As for judging, it is an exercise in conformity with little to no room for individual opinion. If you fall outside what they want you to do you will be cast out. I have never had an interest, nor would I ever remotely entertain the notion of judging, and if you don't mind I'll continue to have my opinions on shows whether regardless of whether I judge or not. Besides, I don't need to be a judge to figure out what's happening onstage.


I will comment one last time on this thread because it has become extremely negative/disrespectful and really is going nowhere. I did not change my mind or opinion to who I thought should have won Nationals last year. Not in the least. The judging has changed over the last year and while sitting back and looking and how THE JUDGES have judged the Europa I can see WHY it is going the way it is.

For Joe to say I want someone to win only because I am friends with them at the time? lol Come on! That is completely incorrect and actually pretty ridiculous. I help (and am friends with) numerous people throughout the process of getting ready for shows. That does not cloud my judgement in terms of who *should* win. That has nothing to do with who *should* win.

I stand by all of what I have posted in the past because it is exactly what happened and how I (as well as others) lived it. With the comments that were written about Elena, again, I do stand by it because it was a growing point in my life as well as her life. I learned (as well as Elena) a hell of a lot up-til and after the USA, that I never want to deal with again. Elena has grown, evolved, and has really begun to change her life to be that amazing person that she is inside! (which I'm so happy about...) Elena and I have gotten past these bad times and are friends. I couldn't be happier about the direction Elena is going. I am so happy to finally see the Elena that I knew was there and waiting to come out! All of this, her and I have discussed at great length.

As far as critiques about the 2005 Nationals, they were IMO, dead on. It is a very touchy subject on who should have won because everyone up there had something structurally going on. So it came down to who you prefer more. At the time, I preferred Debi. Now, almost a year later, I see where the IFBB (pro division) has taken the judging this year and I see WHY they picked Dena. I can understand and respect that.... Once again this has nothing to do with friends. I am an acquaitance of both (debi and dena) and haven't spoken to either of them since last year's Nationals. I'm happy Dena has done so well as a pro and can't wait to see what Debi does this year at the Nationals.

Now going back to Joe thinking I am contradicting myself with being happy that Mimi won? Come on..... she is NOT massive. Massive (since you want to define it, TO ME, is looking at the HUGE girls who are standing up there shredded at 170-180 with blocky frames. Just to clarify, Mimi weighed in at 150 at 5'6! Jody May weighed in (I believe) at 155 at what, 5'7?? Thats not anything out of the ordinary considering at 5'4, I weighed in at 135 at the USA. It's all based on structure and what your body can hold, seeing as nobody has the same bone structure or muscle development, or we'd all be winning!

I'll have to say though, with the negativity in this thread, this is definitely a part of the reason why I am and have been disgusted with bodybuilding. My attitude towards the sport hasn't changed and am glad I do not feel the need to HAVE to compete. If it happens, it happens. To be surrounded with negative people like this (most of which aren't even competitors!!!) is definitely not what bodybuilding should be about.

Amanda

[Brandi Burns]

Good post ^

[Maxt]

Excellent post from you Amanda. I know you won't let Joe and Echo disgust you with Bodybuilding for very long. Aside from your being a pro already at a young age and a great competitor I have to give it to you, you are a complete student of the science of competitive bodybuilding including all of its trends, countercurrents and dimensions including JUDGING which is very important. I know by working with Robin Parker you have learned from one of the very best and legends from the Nineties a great great decade for womens bodybuilding. I was a fan of hers from back then and there was not a day I didn't think about bodybuilding. You just keep on with what you are doing because you most definitely ROCK! Go on girl. Next year may be a big year for you too?

[CalJoe]

Excellent post from you Amanda. I know you won't let Joe and Echo disgust you with Bodybuilding for very long. Aside from your being a pro already at a young age and a great competitor I have to give it to you, you are a complete student of the science of competitive bodybuilding including all of its trends, countercurrents and dimensions including JUDGING which is very important. I know by working with Robin Parker you have learned from one of the very best and legends from the Nineties a great great decade for womens bodybuilding. I was a fan of hers from back then and there was not a day I didn't think about bodybuilding. You just keep on with what you are doing because you most definitely ROCK! Go on girl. Next year may be a big year for you too?
There are 3 things you can set your watch to; the sun rising, the sun setting, and another kiss-ass post from Maxt.

You know Maxt, if you ever came up for air from having your head up Amanda's ass you might see some of what is going on.

[CalJoe]

I will comment one last time on this thread because it has become extremely negative/disrespectful and really is going nowhere. I did not change my mind or opinion to who I thought should have won Nationals last year. Not in the least. The judging has changed over the last year and while sitting back and looking and how THE JUDGES have judged the Europa I can see WHY it is going the way it is.

For Joe to say I want someone to win only because I am friends with them at the time? lol Come on! That is completely incorrect and actually pretty ridiculous. I help (and am friends with) numerous people throughout the process of getting ready for shows. That does not cloud my judgement in terms of who *should* win. That has nothing to do with who *should* win.

I stand by all of what I have posted in the past because it is exactly what happened and how I (as well as others) lived it. With the comments that were written about Elena, again, I do stand by it because it was a growing point in my life as well as her life. I learned (as well as Elena) a hell of a lot up-til and after the USA, that I never want to deal with again. Elena has grown, evolved, and has really begun to change her life to be that amazing person that she is inside! (which I'm so happy about...) Elena and I have gotten past these bad times and are friends. I couldn't be happier about the direction Elena is going. I am so happy to finally see the Elena that I knew was there and waiting to come out! All of this, her and I have discussed at great length.

As far as critiques about the 2005 Nationals, they were IMO, dead on. It is a very touchy subject on who should have won because everyone up there had something structurally going on. So it came down to who you prefer more. At the time, I preferred Debi. Now, almost a year later, I see where the IFBB (pro division) has taken the judging this year and I see WHY they picked Dena. I can understand and respect that.... Once again this has nothing to do with friends. I am an acquaitance of both (debi and dena) and haven't spoken to either of them since last year's Nationals. I'm happy Dena has done so well as a pro and can't wait to see what Debi does this year at the Nationals.

Now going back to Joe thinking I am contradicting myself with being happy that Mimi won? Come on..... she is NOT massive. Massive (since you want to define it, TO ME, is looking at the HUGE girls who are standing up there shredded at 170-180 with blocky frames. Just to clarify, Mimi weighed in at 150 at 5'6! Jody May weighed in (I believe) at 155 at what, 5'7?? Thats not anything out of the ordinary considering at 5'4, I weighed in at 135 at the USA. It's all based on structure and what your body can hold, seeing as nobody has the same bone structure or muscle development, or we'd all be winning!

I'll have to say though, with the negativity in this thread, this is definitely a part of the reason why I am and have been disgusted with bodybuilding. My attitude towards the sport hasn't changed and am glad I do not feel the need to HAVE to compete. If it happens, it happens. To be surrounded with negative people like this (most of which aren't even competitors!!!) is definitely not what bodybuilding should be about.

Amanda
There are a lot of people disgusted with you, and there are a lot of competitors in that group. I've spoken with quite a few women bb'ers that despise what you write and are disgusted with your actions. They just don't want to make their feelings known publicly. Echo is a former competitor, I've competed and I will compete again next year. With the exception of Elena (who I have tremendous respect for) the overwhelming majority of your defenders are schmoes. After reading what you wrote about Debi, and then to come and deny it leaves me believing that you're totally delusional.

[Maxt]

You are telling me somebody besides you and Echo have got no love for Amanda Dunbar? Could be, but they're probably part of the negative element of bodybuilding who are very jealous, act on personal grudges and hate on people's successes and victories. You need to take a lesson from Gene and James or just as certainly my main man Chris Brown from Detroit who just gets motivated by ALL the freaky vascular symmetrical proportioned and feminine ladies of bodybuilding that love the sport. That is what is positive of the sport of bodybuilding. I think what is negative is when people hate on the positive contributors to our forum like but not limited to Amanda. There is nothing evil about competitors that put everything into a show and come away from a competition with a victory as decided by *Judges* another of your favorite targets of hate. It is important to realize how they are judging and try and adapt and very importantly to evolve. I think a lot more people are disgusted by all of the hating you do on this website than would ever be disgusted with Amanda Dunbar-of that I am certain. You are also not giving any reconsideration to Dena Westerfield or understanding just how it came to be just how she is doing so well as a pro and headed to the Ms. Olympia.

[CalJoe]

You are telling me somebody besides you and Echo have got no love for Amanda Dunbar? Could be, but they're probably part of the negative element of bodybuilding who are very jealous, act on personal grudges and hate on people's successes and victories. You need to take a lesson from Gene and James or just as certainly my main man Chris Brown from Detroit who just gets motivated by ALL the freaky vascular symmetrical proportioned and feminine ladies of bodybuilding that love the sport. That is what is positive of the sport of bodybuilding. I think what is negative is when people hate on the positive contributors to our forum like but not limited to Amanda. There is nothing evil about competitors that put everything into a show and come away from a competition with a victory as decided by *Judges* another of your favorite targets of hate. It is important to realize how they are judging and try and adapt and very importantly to evolve. I think a lot more people are disgusted by all of the hating you do on this website than would ever be disgusted with Amanda Dunbar-of that I am certain. You are also not giving any reconsideration to Dena Westerfield or understanding just how it came to be just how she is doing so well as a pro and headed to the Ms. Olympia.
You're assuming that these competitors that are disgusted with Amanda's actions are jealous and part of a "negative" element of the sport? That's quite an assumption and an insult to those competitors that take issue with Amanda's statements.

Dena is improving, and I wish her well, but that is irrelevant within this topic of discussion.

Maxt, spare me the lecture on what I'm supposed to get from women's bb. Besides, your head is so far up Amanda's ass I can't hear you anyway.

[Echo]

The show-to-show judging inconsistencies are very difficult for many competitors to deal with. We accept that.

But, it's also difficult for the hardcore fans of women's bodybuilding. Sure, one can say that fan opinions "don't matter", but remember that - in many cases - we're talking about people who live and die for their favorite competitors.

Like it or not, the obsessive nature of bodybuilding includes both the competitors and their fans.

But even if we (the fans) were not obsessed with our favorites, the fact of the matter is that people love controversy. I absolutely believe that every winner should be allowed to enjoy her/his time in the sun, but at some point, those who disagreed with the decision should be allowed to have their say as well.

Do we have to agree at some point to move on and to let the past be the past? Yes, but I don't necessarily have a problem with people who choose not to forget.

That being said, I do agree that people should be allowed to change their minds or to have a different perspective on something 9 months after it happens than they did in the moment. Furthermore, they should not be harshly criticized for adopting a different perspective after-the-fact.

Echo - I generally like a lot of what you post, but I do not like your suggestion that people should not be allowed to change their minds (without being crucified for it).

That is all.

Tre:

I appreciate your perspective on the "post-mortem" which has taken place on this thread regarding the 2005 Nationals. As you are well aware, the judging of the light-heavyweight class last year is a concern relative to the upcoming 2006 event because many of the key players from 2005 are returning to compete.

However, I take issue with your last statement. When did I ever say, or even imply, that people do not have a right to change their mind? Of course they do, especially if confronted by new and convincing evidence. However, in the case of Amanda, her retrospective assessment on the 2005 event is now so dramatically different than it was just a few months ago that it is not unreasonable to view it with a jaundiced eye. An equivalent turn-around would be President Bush now addressing the public and announcing that the war in Iraq was a big mistake.

[Maxt]

Cal Joe, Dena Westerfield is totally relevant if you are really reading what Amanda is writing that which I totally agreed with and a conclusion I came to as well. That is what she's writing about what conclusion she came to about Dena Westerfield's physique vis a vis Debi Laszewski and how her mindset evolved to seeing the other side of women's bodybuilding. Amid some real judging inconsitencies, there is one consistencey and that is you are seeing and will continue to see female competitors whose proportions, symmetry and overall "total package" to include stage presence and the finer details of a competiton that includes femininity play into judging as much or more than overall muscularity, mass and size.

[Tre]

Joe - play nicely!

I can only speak for myself (and millions of fans!!!) when I say that I'd much rather have an outspoken Amanda Dunbar than an Amanda who never says anything at all. I'm not saying that every competitor should strive to be like Amanda, but I love her the way that she is. If that means she occasionally says something that manages to offend someone - even me - so be it. At least she has the guts to say what's on her mind, and posts under her own name.

I'd much rather have that than to have her simply be another "You go, girl!" type who merely rubber-stamps everything.

[eseiple]

TRE...well said.

I have a hard time taking things too seriously from those that utlize screen names and never reveal who they are.

[hans]

OK I have only just caught up with this thread and it's got WAY out of control. Apart from anything else, it's totally off-topic because this thread is supposed to be about this year's Nationals - NOT LAST YEAR'S USA.

Whoever wants to continue debating the light-heavyweight class at last year's USA, you need to at least do it in a thread that's about that subject.

Joe - this is getting seriously out of control. I know you are not a fan of Amanda but you are making every single thread on here about her and how she shouldn't have won the USA. Enough already!

Can we drop this now? If not, I'll have to lock this thread.

Hans

[Maxt]

Welcome back Hans. I know this year's Nationals will be very competitive. Have you kept up with all of the competitors who will be making their preparations and competing this year? See you in Miami Beach, I hope?

[Maxt]

Joe - play nicely!

I can only speak for myself (and millions of fans!!!) when I say that I'd much rather have an outspoken Amanda Dunbar than an Amanda who never says anything at all. I'm not saying that every competitor should strive to be like Amanda, but I love her the way that she is. If that means she occasionally says something that manages to offend someone - even me - so be it. At least she has the guts to say what's on her mind, and posts under her own name.

I'd much rather have that than to have her simply be another "You go, girl!" type who merely rubber-stamps everything. Message to Amanda, Elena and all of the lovely ladies of female bodybuilding and legendary competitors who post messages here and have made womens bodybuilding such a great sport for these past several years. You Go Girl! I am behind you 100%. If you are a female bodybuilder and you are suffering harassment from one of these negative resentful types, MAXT definitely has your back.

[hans]

Welcome back Hans. I know this year's Nationals will be very competitive. Have you kept up with all of the competitors who will be making their preparations and competing this year? See you in Miami Beach, I hope?

Yes I wouldn't miss Miami for anything! I'll also be doing an article previewing Nationals some time before the show, with the usual info on competitors in each class and countdown pics. So any competitors that are reading this, feel free to send stuff my way! ;)

Hans

[Scott]

Hey Hans i will give you a heads up if run across any1 competing.

[CalJoe]

TRE...well said.

I have a hard time taking things too seriously from those that utlize screen names and never reveal who they are.
At least you have an idea of who I am. :)

[CalJoe]

OK I have only just caught up with this thread and it's got WAY out of control. Apart from anything else, it's totally off-topic because this thread is supposed to be about this year's Nationals - NOT LAST YEAR'S USA.

Whoever wants to continue debating the light-heavyweight class at last year's USA, you need to at least do it in a thread that's about that subject.

Joe - this is getting seriously out of control. I know you are not a fan of Amanda but you are making every single thread on here about her and how she shouldn't have won the USA. Enough already!

Can we drop this now? If not, I'll have to lock this thread.

Hans
Fine by me, but don't make Amanda out to be the innocent babe in the woods, because she is very, very far from being that.

[CalJoe]

The show-to-show judging inconsistencies are very difficult for many competitors to deal with. We accept that.

But, it's also difficult for the hardcore fans of women's bodybuilding. Sure, one can say that fan opinions "don't matter", but remember that - in many cases - we're talking about people who live and die for their favorite competitors.

Like it or not, the obsessive nature of bodybuilding includes both the competitors and their fans.

But even if we (the fans) were not obsessed with our favorites, the fact of the matter is that people love controversy. I absolutely believe that every winner should be allowed to enjoy her/his time in the sun, but at some point, those who disagreed with the decision should be allowed to have their say as well.

Do we have to agree at some point to move on and to let the past be the past? Yes, but I don't necessarily have a problem with people who choose not to forget.

That being said, I do agree that people should be allowed to change their minds or to have a different perspective on something 9 months after it happens than they did in the moment. Furthermore, they should not be harshly criticized for adopting a different perspective after-the-fact.

Echo - I generally like a lot of what you post, but I do not like your suggestion that people should not be allowed to change their minds (without being crucified for it).

That is all.
Tre', I am going to say this one more time and be done with it. Anyone has the right to change their mind, but it's another entirely different thing to change you mind and trash talk the person you're changing your mind about.

I'd like to think that someone out there can tell the difference.

[CalJoe]

Joe - play nicely!

I can only speak for myself (and millions of fans!!!) when I say that I'd much rather have an outspoken Amanda Dunbar than an Amanda who never says anything at all. I'm not saying that every competitor should strive to be like Amanda, but I love her the way that she is. If that means she occasionally says something that manages to offend someone - even me - so be it. At least she has the guts to say what's on her mind, and posts under her own name.

I'd much rather have that than to have her simply be another "You go, girl!" type who merely rubber-stamps everything.
I can respect that Tre', but remember that if you play hard you have to expect people to play hard with you too.

How are things with you? I look forward to seeing you at one of these shows.

[Scott]

Yo Tre what happened to the Fantasy league, i guess i will have to defend my title next year eh :D

[CalJoe]

Yo Tre what happened to the Fantasy league, i guess i will have to defend my title next year eh :D
Fantasy football, baseball or basketball?

[Echo]

I have friends participating in the Nationals and I plan to attend. I have relatives down there and was thinking about using their kitchen to make a chocolate mud pie using whey protein. Does anyone have a good recipe using whey protein? Or, should I just forget about the whey protein idea?

[Scott]

Fantasy football, baseball or basketball?

Football, i was in a league with Tre and Tara Scotti and a few others last season, you play in any leagues Joe?

[Scott]

I have friends participating in the Nationals and I plan to attend. I have relatives down there and was thinking about using their kitchen to make a chocolate mud pie using whey protein. Does anyone have a good recipe using whey protein? Or, should I just forget about the whey protein idea?

I am actually trying to send an Echo upstairs to the Big Guy so maybe he can privide me with a way to attend, i think this is going to be one rockin show! :sprite10:

[CalJoe]

I have friends participating in the Nationals and I plan to attend. I have relatives down there and was thinking about using their kitchen to make a chocolate mud pie using whey protein. Does anyone have a good recipe using whey protein? Or, should I just forget about the whey protein idea?
Not sure how whey would bake. I add it to my oatmeal, but only after I microwave the oatmeal. I wouldn't recommend microwaving the whey with the oatmeal.

[CalJoe]

I am actually trying to send an Echo upstairs to the Big Guy so maybe he can privide me with a way to attend, i think this is going to be one rockin show! :sprite10:
I think it's going to be an awesome show, particularly the LHW class with Elena, Debi L., Angie, Isabelle, Kristy H., and others I'm sure.

[CalJoe]

Football, i was in a league with Tre and Tara Scotti and a few others last season, you play in any leagues Joe?
Tara Scotti? That is funny. I'm in fantasy leagues year round (baseball, football, basketball). I've been playing fantasy sports since 1987. It's always a lot of fun.

[Scott]

Just curious do you think they need to realign the weight classes like have LHW 135-142, MW 123-134, LW 121 and under, those are just numbers off the top of my head.

[Scott]

Tara Scotti? That is funny. I'm in fantasy leagues year round (baseball, football, basketball). I've been playing fantasy sports since 1987. It's always a lot of fun.

yeah i have been playin probably since about 2000 baseball has kind of grown old on me. i like football the best

[CalJoe]

yeah i have been playin probably since about 2000 baseball has kind of grown old on me. i like football the best
I've been playing in the Yahoo leagues with the same group of guys now for several years.

[CalJoe]

Just curious do you think they need to realign the weight classes like have LHW 135-142, MW 123-134, LW 121 and under, those are just numbers off the top of my head.
I'd like to see LW-120 and under
MW-over120 to 132
LHW-over132 to 142
HW-over 142.

[cbdetroit]

I'd like to see LW-120 and under
MW-over120 to 132
LHW-over132 to 142
HW-over 142.Now that's a Brilliant Idea!!!! :)

[cbdetroit]

Can i ask why you post the OLDEST pic of me competing? LOL that pic is from 2003 at least post a decent one.....Elena those along with your 2004 NPC Nationals photos are some of the Best Contest photos of you period. And I can't wait to see the 2006 Version of you in your "Freaky Shredded Vascular Ripped" conditioning.

And folks to really help put this thread back to it's Greatness PLEASE If you know of any Beautiful & Sexy Women Bodybuilders & Fitness Women that would Compete at the Greatest pro Qualfier this side of the North Americans & The Canadian Nationals then have them to post some Transformation/Progression photos leading up to contest time because inquiring minds would like to know and it's time to get the party crowd fired up!!!

And remember folks Beautiful Oustanding Shredded Vascular Contest Shape Rules and this thread's for you, So let's Go ahead & Get PUMPED UP, PEACE!!!! :)

[Scott]

Now that's a Brilliant Idea!!!! :)

Maybe we can make a commercial for Guiness :banana:

[NPCIN]

Once again I am posting under my husbands name. I would love to see the class weights change to the above listed weights. I feel more comfortable in the LHW class than the HW and moving it to 142 would give me a better chance of making the LHW class. Hopefully some NPC judges will consider this.
Julia

[mark000]

CalJoe :
I'd like to see LW-120 and under
MW-over120 to 132
LHW-over132 to 142
HW-over 142.

With only minor adjustments from that, we would have round numbers in metric:
LW < 121 (<55 Kg)
MW 121-132 (55-60 Kg)
LH 132-143 (60-65 Kg)
HW > 143 (>65 Kg)

That way the Americans would be prepared for international competition, unlike, say, US basketball players :D

[cbdetroit]

Once again I am posting under my husbands name. I would love to see the class weights change to the above listed weights. I feel more comfortable in the LHW class than the HW and moving it to 142 would give me a better chance of making the LHW class. Hopefully some NPC judges will consider this.
JuliaJulia, I'm going to give you your Props & Respect and let you know that you have an Awesome physique, and you're very Beautiful, Classy & Sexy I know that your Husband's very proud of how you've built your body to the peak of perfection. No doubt you'll make a Wonderful IFBB pro Big Time :)

[joanna]

Just to remind you all that are competing I will be working backstage for protan.
I seem to end up as the offical suit tier ( cant spell) lol but you know what I mean.
If you need any help we are there for you and we hope from Protan that you really enjoy your experience as after all it is YOUR DAY.
If you need me to help before the day of the show I live in Fort Lauderdale and so it's my hood, therefore if you need help with tanning the day before or you need to get somewhere/something (within reason lol) I can help as I have a car etc.
It's nothing worse than being in a new place, low carbs, worrying how you look and you cant find a ****ing thing to eat....ask me about it, this is why as a pro I get my hands dirty and help backstage to give back and also have a fun time.
My cell is 954 290 7973

Joanna Thomas

[rpflex]

Joanna, Can you fill us in on what's happening with C.J.? I was told she is being baned from helping backstage at future shows and that she was told she had to buy an exhibitor's booth if she wanted to be backstage at the Atlantic City show.

[Maxt]

That is a good question. That would be too bad if C.J. is banned. I couldn't see why? In the past she was very helpful to all BB'ers.

[joanna]

Joanna, Can you fill us in on what's happening with C.J.? I was told she is being baned from helping backstage at future shows and that she was told she had to buy an exhibitor's booth if she wanted to be backstage at the Atlantic City show.

R U READY LOL HERE GOES....HOPE I DONT GET BLACKBALLED AGAIN LOL....

I am not sure on all exact names but the bottom line is 2 well known promoters were the ones who got her axed backstage. I remembering hearing Steve Stone mentioned but its 3rd party.
MAYBE I OR YOU SHOULD ASK DIRECT TO END THE TALKING.
However as far as I know it's only for PRO shows not for amateur shows.
I talked to CJ this week and she tells me several pro guys and I mean a handful were supposed to corner the officials at a show I am presuming this last weekend to ask for CJ to return.
I WOULDNT HOLD MY BREATH THERE AND I SAID THAT TO CJ...WHEN DID THE PRO GUYS BACK US UP?
I dont know the reason why a few people want her axed, to be ****ing serious here there cant be a serious reason, maybe it's because she puts their egos out of joint, maybe it was because she worked when Wayne Demilla. she may have said something years ago, it could be down to them thinking they are biased to have her back and no other suit designers.
However they fail to realise CJ has been around for as long as anyone, she is not selling suits backstage she is like me working her ass off and supporting the competitors.

BOTTOM LINE IS THE POWERS THAT BE NEED TO STOP THINKING ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT AND ACTUALLY ASK THE ATHLETES HOW THEY FEEL.
IF THE ATHLETES SUPPORT CJ BEING BACKSTAGE THEN **** THE POWER TRIP AND GIVE THE ATHLETES THE POWER BACK. THIS SPORT IS TOO ****ED UP WITH SELF CENTERED CONTROL FREAKS, THE PRO RANKS ARE SUFFERING, WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES EVEN IF IT UPSETS A FEW PEOPLES OLD WAYS,ITS NOT ABOUT THEM ITS ABOUT EACH AND EVERYONE WHO EVER SET FOOT TO A STAGE AND KEEPING THEIR PASSION ALIVE.

And another point....if you are a pro and you live around the US it would be nice to see a few of you offer to get your hands dirty backstage and support the up and coming at local shows. I have done this for 5 years, I can remember lots of occasions where other women were dressed up to the max and chatting and whatever and theres me protan and **** all over and a mess.I also remember some pro ladies only coming backstage to help the person they were getting ready, thats great but your experience and support to nervous beginners would go a long way. I have networked for years by being backstage, when you have helped someone from the beginning they remember you always and that makes me feel honored.

Ok I'll shut up for now...
All the best Robin and again I thankyou for you for supporting and caring for Amanda.

[joanna]

Joanna, Can you fill us in on what's happening with C.J.? I was told she is being baned from helping backstage at future shows and that she was told she had to buy an exhibitor's booth if she wanted to be backstage at the Atlantic City show.
R U READY LOL HERE GOES....HOPE I DONT GET BLACKBALLED AGAIN LOL....

I am not sure on all exact names but the bottom line is 2 well known promoters were the ones who got her axed backstage. I remembering hearing Steve Stone mentioned but its 3rd party.
MAYBE I OR YOU SHOULD ASK DIRECT TO END THE TALKING.
However as far as I know it's only for PRO shows not for amateur shows.
I talked to CJ this week and she tells me several pro guys and I mean a handful were supposed to corner the officials at a show I am presuming this last weekend to ask for CJ to return.
I WOULDNT HOLD MY BREATH THERE AND I SAID THAT TO CJ...WHEN DID THE PRO GUYS BACK US UP?
I dont know the reason why a few people want her axed, to be ****ing serious here there cant be a serious reason, maybe it's because she puts their egos out of joint, maybe it was because she worked when Wayne Demilla. she may have said something years ago, it could be down to them thinking they are biased to have her back and no other suit designers.
However they fail to realise CJ has been around for as long as anyone, she is not selling suits backstage she is like me working her ass off and supporting the competitors.

BOTTOM LINE IS THE POWERS THAT BE NEED TO STOP THINKING ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT AND ACTUALLY ASK THE ATHLETES HOW THEY FEEL.
IF THE ATHLETES SUPPORT CJ BEING BACKSTAGE THEN **** THE POWER TRIP AND GIVE THE ATHLETES THE POWER BACK. THIS SPORT IS TOO ****ED UP WITH SELF CENTERED CONTROL FREAKS, THE PRO RANKS ARE SUFFERING, WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES EVEN IF IT UPSETS A FEW PEOPLES OLD WAYS,ITS NOT ABOUT THEM ITS ABOUT EACH AND EVERYONE WHO EVER SET FOOT TO A STAGE AND KEEPING THEIR PASSION ALIVE.

And another point....if you are a pro and you live around the US it would be nice to see a few of you offer to get your hands dirty backstage and support the up and coming at local shows. I have done this for 5 years, I can remember lots of occasions where other women were dressed up to the max and chatting and whatever and theres me protan and **** all over and a mess.I also remember some pro ladies only coming backstage to help the person they were getting ready, thats great but your experience and support to nervous beginners would go a long way. I have networked for years by being backstage, when you have helped someone from the beginning they remember you always and that makes me feel honored.

Ok I'll shut up for now...
All the best Robin and again I thankyou for you for supporting and caring for Amanda.

[Maxt]

Joanna I have a friend named Guillaume who got the chance to help out backstage at the Bodyrock in the tanning application area and we were just talking about Miami Beach and the Nationals. At the Bodyrock we had All Access V.I.P. Passes to hang around our necks and he thought to just bring his from the Bodyrock and I said no way you need special passes just for the Nationals but he will try.

[cbdetroit]

Hey Maxt I'm curious, if ProTan is going to be the official tanner for the Nationals as well as the Olympia Weekend then whatever happened to Jan Tana tanning products?

Has the company gone out of business that quick, because they've had a booth at the Arnold Fitness Expo with a nice turnout of people at the Columbus Convention Center. Please feel free to let me know, thanks.:)

[Dre']

Reg Bradford took some great pictures of the show and has posted a free gallery on his website. www.superbodypart.net
Congrats to all of the competitors.

[Maxt]

You mean the Atlantic City Pro Show? Reg is one of the best photographers out there too. He came to my gym to shoot Susan Myers when she was going for the Olympia in 1997. His Atlantic City Pro photos are free, they are outstanding. They tell me a lot more about what was going on at that contest too. I really think the conditioning and muscularity as well as proportions on most of these ladies was clearly outstanding. I hope they made a profit so they can have the show again next yeear and I hope Reg shoots the Nationals in Miami Beach this year also.