Ms. Olympia now a sideshow?

[genex]

In case you all haven't already heard, the promoters of the Ms O have decided to bump it into the expo for the finals and this has unsurprisingly caused a lot of heartache. I'm completely dismayed by this move and Bill Dobbins has written up a critique (http://www.billdobbins.com/PUBLIC/pages/coolfree/MsOlympia05-finals.htm) of the move too. Others like Annie Rivieccio have expressed dismay and disappointment as well.

I don't want to create a thread that is only *****ing and complaining, but it seems to me that there's definitely a market for the bodybuilders as well as the fitness and figure athletes and I would say it leans more to the side of creative marketing than reducing fBB to a sideshow.

What do you all think?

gene

[fbbhubby]

Based on what I've heard from insiders, Pecker really doesn't like the look of today's fbb. There's a basic disconnect here that I don't think is fixable with Pecker. Maybe fbb can win this battle and reinstate Ms. O on a proper stage, but fbb will be fighting more battles each year and will eventually lose. AMI is betting on figure and their "model search".

I agree that there is a solid market for fbb as evidenced by the huge number of fbb pay websites. A fan base exists that is willing to shell out money, but the pro shows should be marketed better to appeal to these fans as well as others who could be fans. Perhaps more, but smaller shows in more cities (kinda like a Grand Prix) would draw out more ticket sales and increase the fan base. But only if the IFBB reduces the sanction fee to make it profitable for promoters. More shows with a smaller sanction fee could net more total money to the IFBB. Killing pro female bodybuilding nets them zero. Also, promoters should do more promoting instead of just organizing and putting on the show. Where is the mainstream media advertising?

BTW, has the prize money been reduced further as there will be no Ms. O ticket sales?

[genex]

Good points fBBhubby. I think the most salient one may be the whole marketing of the shows and the sport as a whole.

There is a lot that could be done on that front. At this point, it doesn't even seem like it would hurt to start a new federation that did that, although many will point to the then WWF's attempts when Vince McMahon did that for men's bodybuilding. Of course that was a whole different angle...

[Maxt]

I see the bad, but I see the good. More oppurtunities exist for female bodybuilding fans because they get a price break on seeing the show. I see the bad because it is going to make it harder to argue for more prize money and some feel this move is disrespectful to their positions as qualified professional athletes.. I would not be totally against seperating the Ms. Olympia from the Mr. Olympia and bringing it back to New York but maybe that is just an allusion to sentimentality because I would ride up on the train, go to it then get to attend the VIP banquet with all of the competitors. Most important to the future of the Ms. Olympia and IFBB womens bodybuilding is femininity. Femininity is the key. Juliette Bergman was interviewed by Lori Braun after she won the 2001 Ms. Olympia overall title. She said in the IFBB for the Ms. Olympia it was important that the Ms. Olympia be obviously "a woman with muscles, but most importantly [the Ms. Olympia conveys the image] be first a foremost a woman." I feel that means that the Ms. Olympia be feminine and more important be someone who can be admired and looked up to by a diverse group of people that might include hardcore fans of female bodybuilding but also their sisters of Figure and Fitness and young girls who might be inspired to join a gym, start working out and one day compete with a goal of being the Ms. Olympia.

[airnel]

this means separation from the mother federation.

[HumanFreakShow300]

i don't see why anyone is surprised by this, it has been a long time coming. At the end of the day, they (the officials) want women to look like women (that have nice muscles), not like men. Bodybuilding is an activity that appeals easier to boys that it does to girls. There are, and have been, countless young boys that aspire to have bigger muscles, but if young girls are looking up to fbbs - as athletes - they still want to look like girls and not "gross" to use a term that is often used to describe bodybuilders (male and female alike). If bodybuilding does not appeal to the masses, then none of the the gripes that exist will ever change.

We all know about prize monies and "promotional efforts" being sub-par, those things may never change - tremendously - for the better. We have discussed this topic before, it is still my stance that the female bodybuilders that are actively involved really has a responsibility to take a pro-active approach when it comes to getting more mainstream acceptance. Who cares if a guy has muscles, not many, but a woman with big muscles will draw attention wether positive or negative. More widespread acceptance (for the ladies) equals bigger bucks and that means there would not be the issue(s) of change. If something is making money, it really will not be changed by the ones making the money.


One.

[Heather Lee]

You know, for those of us who compete, and who strive to turn pro and compete at the pinnacle of our "sport", it leaves a lot to think about....

If we are being alienated and ousted to the sideline at the biggest show we have, well where are we supposed to aim to compete??? On a stage at an expo? The number 1 female bodybuilding show in the world is a sidelined event. Amazing. I compete in Strongwoman and am also a Pro Powerlifter, and in no other sport are females sidelined.

It kind of makes you take a step back and ask if its all worth it.

Heather Lee
~~~~~~~~~
http://www.heatherleenj.com

[Amanda Dunbar]

You shouldnt have to think about if it's all worth it because you should be doing it for YOURSELF and not to appease anyone else... this is why I show up on stage as I WANT and not what anyone else says I should look like. You need to do what makes YOU HAPPY. It's your life and body for the long term, not anyone elses.....

Amanda

[Heather Lee]

I do it for me but when you have less and less venues to compete in, you have to ask youself....

Heather Lee
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.heatherleenj.com

[genex]

I feel you all's pain! I know girls who stop competing in fitness in other federations b/c the outlets to compete were so weak. I know one pro who was so excited to compete in the US as a pro and then was in a kindergarten pumping up in a classroom for her pro debut. That hurt and she was less inspired to want to continue to compete - you can't discount that part of it.

[Tre]

A good question was brought to my attention yesterday: How much are the 'model search' participants paying in IFBB dues this year?

The FBBs - just as every other division - all paid $200...to be in a club that doesn't even want them.

[Heather Lee]

...to be in a club that doesn't even want them.

That is my point.

If we aren't even wanted in our sport, then where can we show what we work so hard for...

Now mind you, I love working out...I love being strong, but the only reason I maintain the level of muscularity I have is because I love competing.

Would I rather be 125 pounds and shredded, be able to fit into normal clothes, be in awesome shape and have a body most women would kill for??? YES! I am not ashamed to say that. But my love for being onstage is what drives me to build my muscle. I realize what I am is not socially acceptible, but I accept that to do what I want to do....5 years ago I could have done really well at any figure show~but there was no figure division then. I worked with a gymnastics instructor for 3 days a week, private lessons, for almost a year, and I still couldn't do what the fitness girls did. So, in order to compete, I went into bodybuilding. Now look where that competitive outlet is going....

Now, take a look at my situation...how would you feel?

[Scott]

ok so what would happen if FBB's crashed the party at the model search then what old man Pecker gonna do? just a curious question :)

[Amanda Dunbar]

Heather

From what you are saying, I wouldn't compete in bbing... This is where that decision of what I was saying above comes in. You have to do it for yourself, if in yourself you'd rather be smaller fitting into a killer size 3 all year round, then hell, DO IT. Ya know? Have that hot body that *all* women would die for. If you stay in bbing for the competition, you are staying for the wrong reasons, because it's quite obvious bbing is going NOWHERE, nevermind the fact that some things involved in being a fbb aren't necessary worth it especially if you could see yourself being happy at a smaller size. Which I'm sure you can agree with me on that.....

In my case, I wouldn't care if I competed again... I LOVE being in shape, but competition doesnt necessarily matter to me. It really just gives me a reason to get ULTRA SHREDDED and not be offseason. Either way I'd be a BIG GIRL. lol. That's just MY mentality, but thats the way I'm happy. I, personally, don't want to be like everyone else, but thats me.... For me, instead of having clothes that fit me, I live in Florida where I don't HAVE to wear pants and I'll just wear a skirt so I dont have to find a pair of jeans that I can fit my legs into.

I completely see your point, but this is where 2 different mentalities come into play. Is it worth it to stay for competition that NONE of the major people involved care if ANY OF US are in it anymore? This is why a LOT of women are switching back to figure. You can still get a pro card, still compete, still be in kick ass shape and do well. Look at LISA BICKELS.... Cathy Priest.... the list goes on and on.....

Either way I support what you and every other fbb does, no matter what route. But you have to follow your heart.

Amanda

[KyleQuest]

I'm not surprised by the move. Having a two venue system requires splitting up the attractions. How would it sound if they put all the woman in the Orleans Arena and left the guys to the convention center?

Right now, I have waaayy to many thoughts running through my head to form any opinion. Things are changing and I'm looking at why. I've been researching David Pecker, his company's holdings, the buy out, some of his top employee's... etc. There is one consistent theme in his publications, easy reading, sensationalism, and T&A.

I'm not thrilled with the level of market control David Pecker, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Sylvester Stallone have acquired recently. Obviously the system has changed because it's no longer the same individuals leading it. I know it's been supportive and enabling of a certain style but, no longer. It's unfortunate, it sucks, and it's unfair to the athlete's yet still, it's happening.

I do feel for Heather and those in similar situations. Amanda's not always right ;) in this I believe she is. All we can do is go with the flow. To try our best to be happy with ourselves everyday. And maybe, things might not turn out so badly. A little optimism can be a good thing.

~Rich

[Larg]

Heather

From what you are saying, I wouldn't compete in bbing... This is where that decision of what I was saying above comes in. You have to do it for yourself, if in yourself you'd rather be smaller fitting into a killer size 3 all year round, then hell, DO IT. Ya know? Have that hot body that *all* women would die for. If you stay in bbing for the competition, you are staying for the wrong reasons, because it's quite obvious bbing is going NOWHERE, nevermind the fact that some things involved in being a fbb aren't necessary worth it especially if you could see yourself being happy at a smaller size. Which I'm sure you can agree with me on that.....

In my case, I wouldn't care if I competed again... I LOVE being in shape, but competition doesnt necessarily matter to me. It really just gives me a reason to get ULTRA SHREDDED and not be offseason. Either way I'd be a BIG GIRL. lol. That's just MY mentality, but thats the way I'm happy. I, personally, don't want to be like everyone else, but thats me.... For me, instead of having clothes that fit me, I live in Florida where I don't HAVE to wear pants and I'll just wear a skirt so I dont have to find a pair of jeans that I can fit my legs into.

I completely see your point, but this is where 2 different mentalities come into play. Is it worth it to stay for competition that NONE of the major people involved care if ANY OF US are in it anymore? This is why a LOT of women are switching back to figure. You can still get a pro card, still compete, still be in kick ass shape and do well. Look at LISA BICKELS.... Cathy Priest.... the list goes on and on.....

Either way I support what you and every other fbb does, no matter what route. But you have to follow your heart.

Amanda

Well both Heather and Amanda make great points here. Amanda seems HAPPY being a "BIG GIRL" whether she competes or not, but Heather is driven to compete (it's her PASSION) and is willing to make the sacrifices necessary to compete and to succeed like all dedicated professional/amateur athletes do. I guess I have 2 questions.
1) Heather, would you even see yourself competing in Figure if there was not a BB competition option (since Fitness is apparently out of the picture)?
2) Amanda, being a competitive gymnast and BB most of your life, will you really put competition aside that easily as it seems from your comments? Or will you ever see yourself competing in something else like Figure (if a BB competition option is not available)?

Obviously, I hope this is a hypothetical exercise because I don't see FBB going away. However, I am curious since you two have put your ideas out on this forum.

[KyleQuest]

Amanda, in figure?? Oh, go easy on him girl.... He knows not what he speaks.

It's the heat... He's dehydrated.. um.. he's carb depleted!!...

hehehehe.......
~Rich

[Larg]

Amanda, in figure?? Oh, go easy on him girl.... He knows not what he speaks.

It's the heat... He's dehydrated.. um.. he's carb depleted!!...

hehehehe.......
~Rich

Rich,
Thanks for the humor, but I would like for Heather and Amanda to respond (or not respond) before "light" is made of my questions. I appreciate your consideration here. I am sure you wouldn't like me answering questions that you posed to other individuals...because that's a sure sign of "dehydration" ..lol..or is the appropriate word "disrespect"...lol Moving forward...

[andre]

Today, I visited the 2005 Olympia weekend homepage (www.2005olympia.com) again and I saw that the event schedule was updated:
The Mr. Olympia pre-judging will be held in the Orleans Theatre at 10 AM.
The finals for the women's bodybuilding will be held in the Orleans Theatre at 2 PM.

So, maybe there's still hope that the finals for the women's bodybuilding will be held in the Orleans Theatre.

But anyway, I used the “contact us” form to ask for confirmation of the event schedule. As soon as I got an answer, I will publish it here!

edit:
In the meantime, the schedule was updated once again (this was the third or fourth time that the schedule changed):
The finals for the women's bodybuilding will be held in the Las Vegas Convention Center at 2 PM. :(

[Heather Lee]

Well both Heather and Amanda make great points here. Amanda seems HAPPY being a "BIG GIRL" whether she competes or not, but Heather is driven to compete (it's her PASSION) and is willing to make the sacrifices necessary to compete and to succeed like all dedicated professional/amateur athletes do. I guess I have 2 questions.
1) Heather, would you even see yourself competing in Figure if there was not a BB competition option (since Fitness is apparently out of the picture)?

Thank You....that was 100 percent what I was trying to get across!!! Competing is my passion!!! Amanda, to just say give it up, like it is nothing, is crazy...You weren't understanding my point of frustration.

I have worked so hard... and so many years onstage and so many hours in the gym...so the concept at starting all over in a whole other division~figure~is just crazy for me. If I give up bodybuilding, the only stages I will be taking are in powerlifting or in Strongman. I could now, after bodybuilding for 5 years, never see myself in figure. To have the body, yes...but what they do onstage is just not me. So I hope that answers your questions and explains my frustrations a bit better.

Heather Lee
http://www.heatherleenj.com
http://www.heatherleenj.com/journal/journal.html

[Amanda Dunbar]

I see your point Heather, you have to do what makes you happy and if competing in bbing makes you happy. GREAT!!! :) That is all that matters... absolutely.

Now I have to say, don't jump down Richs' throat here because he actually does know me VERY WELL....

I would NEVER and I repeat NEVER compete in FIGURE. That is just NOT my game at all. I do respect the girls that do it, but for me, it just ISN'T where its at.

Hypothetically, if there wasn't bodybuilding that is a good question because yeah I would have to say I'd throw in the towel in terms of competing. I don't have a tremendous *need* to do it. I do love it, but don't necessarily crave it THAT much.

There is just nothing out there for me to compete in otherwise that would make me happy. I could never physically be a powerlifter or do strongwoman competitions like heather does. I give her props for that. I SUCK at lifting heavy weights. I don't even squat lol. In my life, I've squatted probably a grand total of 6 workouts, if that. Due to injuries/surgeries it just isn't in my cards. I wish I was able to train heavier, but I can't... for bodybuilding it works perfectly because for me to grow, I can train to failure and get the same result as the heavy squads or deads that Heather and Elena do. So I'm very very lucky that way.

My PASSION is gymnastics, if somehow I could go back in time and erase my injuries and be younger again, or have some sort of federation where older women compete still, I'd do it. I'd love it actually, I can't imagine being in the shape that I'm in now competing as a gymnast... skills would be SO EASY now. But its too late now to say things like that. I can only potentially live my life through the eyes of someone younger if someday I can hopefully get back into coaching gymnastics, I'd like to later on be a National Level gymnastics coach with kids on the National/International teams. That is a HUGE dream of mine... more so than bbing. Man, would I love that!!!!!!!!! :) All in time....

Amanda

[Scott]

I see your point Heather, you have to do what makes you happy and if competing in bbing makes you happy. GREAT!!! :) That is all that matters... absolutely.

Now I have to say, don't jump down Richs' throat here because he actually does know me VERY WELL....

I would NEVER and I repeat NEVER compete in FIGURE. That is just NOT my game at all. I do respect the girls that do it, but for me, it just ISN'T where its at.

Hypothetically, if there wasn't bodybuilding that is a good question because yeah I would have to say I'd throw in the towel in terms of competing. I don't have a tremendous *need* to do it. I do love it, but don't necessarily crave it THAT much.

There is just nothing out there for me to compete in otherwise that would make me happy. I could never physically be a powerlifter or do strongwoman competitions like heather does. I give her props for that. I SUCK at lifting heavy weights. I don't even squat lol. In my life, I've squatted probably a grand total of 6 workouts, if that. Due to injuries/surgeries it just isn't in my cards. I wish I was able to train heavier, but I can't... for bodybuilding it works perfectly because for me to grow, I can train to failure and get the same result as the heavy squads or deads that Heather and Elena do. So I'm very very lucky that way.

My PASSION is gymnastics, if somehow I could go back in time and erase my injuries and be younger again, or have some sort of federation where older women compete still, I'd do it. I'd love it actually, I can't imagine being in the shape that I'm in now competing as a gymnast... skills would be SO EASY now. But its too late now to say things like that. I can only potentially live my life through the eyes of someone younger if someday I can hopefully get back into coaching gymnastics, I'd like to later on be a National Level gymnastics coach with kids on the National/International teams. That is a HUGE dream of mine... more so than bbing. Man, would I love that!!!!!!!!! :) All in time....

Amanda

Well Bela cant coach forever! :D One ex nat level gymnast i would love to see do bb is Kim Zmeskal after all history has shown that Kim's with a last name that is a mouth full of constanents have done pretty darn well in bb :)

[Larg]

Thank You....that was 100 percent what I was trying to get across!!! Competing is my passion!!! Amanda, to just say give it up, like it is nothing, is crazy...You weren't understanding my point of frustration.

I have worked so hard... and so many years onstage and so many hours in the gym...so the concept at starting all over in a whole other division~figure~is just crazy for me. If I give up bodybuilding, the only stages I will be taking are in powerlifting or in Strongman. I could now, after bodybuilding for 5 years, never see myself in figure. To have the body, yes...but what they do onstage is just not me. So I hope that answers your questions and explains my frustrations a bit better.

Heather Lee
http://www.heatherleenj.com (http://www.heatherleenj.com/)
http://www.heatherleenj.com/journal/journal.html

Heather,
I am glad I could help you articulate your point...I get lucky sometimes that way:D .
Thanks a lot for your candor!! You gave me exactly what I was hoping for in your answer--a real answer:) . I've been a supporter of FBB since the late 1980s when American Muscle was on ESPN and the FBBs were getting more coverage on that show in the mainstream media than they are now. What a shame!! It's time for a drastic change for the better even if it means you won't be able to compete in BB temporarily. Women's tennis faced these hurdles over 30 years ago and had to separate from the men. Now the men's tour and women's tour are playing at the same venues more often than ever before strictly because the promoters need the women to sell more seats. If this trend in tennis proves out in FBB, then the next 30 years should be encouraging for FBB in many ways.

Heather keep up the great strides in your contest prep!!

[KyleQuest]

Thank's Amanda.... and sorry Larg that was humor.

Andre's right, they changed the schedule again. I have faith this will all work out.

There's more support then what's believed...
~Rich

[Larg]

I see your point Heather, you have to do what makes you happy and if competing in bbing makes you happy. GREAT!!! :) That is all that matters... absolutely.

Now I have to say, don't jump down Richs' throat here because he actually does know me VERY WELL....

I would NEVER and I repeat NEVER compete in FIGURE. That is just NOT my game at all. I do respect the girls that do it, but for me, it just ISN'T where its at.

Hypothetically, if there wasn't bodybuilding that is a good question because yeah I would have to say I'd throw in the towel in terms of competing. I don't have a tremendous *need* to do it. I do love it, but don't necessarily crave it THAT much.

There is just nothing out there for me to compete in otherwise that would make me happy. I could never physically be a powerlifter or do strongwoman competitions like heather does. I give her props for that. I SUCK at lifting heavy weights. I don't even squat lol. In my life, I've squatted probably a grand total of 6 workouts, if that. Due to injuries/surgeries it just isn't in my cards. I wish I was able to train heavier, but I can't... for bodybuilding it works perfectly because for me to grow, I can train to failure and get the same result as the heavy squads or deads that Heather and Elena do. So I'm very very lucky that way.

My PASSION is gymnastics, if somehow I could go back in time and erase my injuries and be younger again, or have some sort of federation where older women compete still, I'd do it. I'd love it actually, I can't imagine being in the shape that I'm in now competing as a gymnast... skills would be SO EASY now. But its too late now to say things like that. I can only potentially live my life through the eyes of someone younger if someday I can hopefully get back into coaching gymnastics, I'd like to later on be a National Level gymnastics coach with kids on the National/International teams. That is a HUGE dream of mine... more so than bbing. Man, would I love that!!!!!!!!! :) All in time....

Amanda

Amanda,
WOW!! Now that's a great answer!! I appreciate you sharing even more than I was expecting. But I guess I should get used to that from you since I read your diary weekly and you don't hold back there for sure.:D I am sure your dreams of getting back into gymnastics will come true and I hope you will be sharing time with that dream and bodybuilding for a long time to come. Thanks for going "hypothetical" with me!! Keep up the great contest prep!!

[Larg]

Thank's Amanda.... and sorry Larg that was humor.

Andre's right, they changed the schedule again. I have faith this will all work out.

There's more support then what's believed...
~Rich

It's all good Rich!!:) I know you were not intentionally trying to "smear" my question. And I was trying to laugh with you as much as I could since I know you know Amanda better than I do. I just wanted to hear it firsthand that's all. I apologize if it seemed I was jumping down your throat . I was really just standing up for my "obvious" question which turned up more than I expected after all.:) You're fortunate to have someone like Amanda to have your back!

[KyleQuest]

Especially when I trip often!!!! Without those pipes, I'd end up on my keister!! :)

Have a great day!!!
~Rich

[Maxt]

I think it could work. Lets think about making it to the Olympia this year in numbers since we do not have to pay a lot of money for tickets.

[Tre]

Folks, what you're seeing here is just the tip of the iceberg - it's going to be a very interesting summer...

[AussieAndrew]

I know this is probably very naive but I really think the time is coming where an alternate professional women's bbing body needs to be put together. As some people have said here the current body doesn't really seem to want them.

Now I know this is easy for me to say on the other side of the world sitting on my backside where I'm not going to actually do anything about it, however, this is something that has happened in other sports. Rebel competitions have happened and have actually worked. It would particularly work if there is a real fan base that would support it. The big catch is you would need sponsors to put money into it and i'm not sure how that stands for women's bbing. It may even have to start out fairly small but if it was set up the right way I think it could be done with the values of what the women actually want. Not some other people's perception of what's acceptable to them or not.

I could go on a lot more about this but I'd be keen to hear other's thoughts. Just know that there have been other sports in the world where athletes and administrators have been unhappy with the way they're being run and they have actually done something about it. As I said though you will always need some backing. So are there any interested entrepreneurs out there (Vince McMahon excluded)?

[Tre]

There are some excellent and very meaty rumors floating around right now, but the only new Olympia schedule-related item is that the men's prejudging at the Orleans Arena is slated to take place several hours before the start of the Ms. O finals at the expo. Theoretically, people who attend the men's pre-show will be able to make it to the expo in time to see the women.

This is just a tiny item, however, believe it or not. The other things sitting just over the bodybuilding horizon are what I'm most anxious to see. This next off-season should prove most revealing.

[fbbhubby]

Tre, care to elaborate on the possiblities??? It can't get much worse, so I'm guessing changes are on the positive side.

[Tre]

I'm still doing some research - give me about 2 weeks to see if I can make some sense of it all.

Let's just say that a lot of people are beginning to take note of AMI/Pecker's greater agenda. It's important to get the ticket-buying fans onboard with this knowledge as well. We have to stand now against them, because they want to change the entire sport into what THEY want. AMI/Pecker have no intention of changing women's bodybuilding and leaving everything else as it is. I don't think they should have ANY control and fortunately, other people are beginning to see it that way, too.