Female BodyBuilding Federation (FBBF) is seeking your involvement

[Tre]

This is a no-nonsense, no-BS approach to competitive aspect of female bodybuilding.

As of this moment, all indications are that the IFBB will be phasing out female bodybuilding within the next couple of years. As I write this today, there is exactly one promoter in the entirety of the U.S. and Canada who plans to have a pro women's bodybuilding event on his stage in 2006 and that's Jim Lorimer's Ms. International competition. I hope that promoters like Ed & Betty Pariso will also have the women back next year, but if the participation isn't good this September, there's a strong chance that show will vanish, too.

I have considered a number of solutions that would allow the current group of pro women to remain an active part of the IFBB (one idea is to swell the current pro ranks by awarding an additional 12-15 pro cards this year), but having zero corporate sponsors willing to finance their events makes this a virtual impossibility. The sentiment that's being expressed by a lot of the top pro men and the companies that sponsor them is "we're tired of the women bodybuilders competing at the expense of the men's prize money".

So, the solution I'm proposing to the women bodybuilders throughout the world is this - form and compete in your own organization that's set upon your own standards of bodybuilding excellence. At the time of this writing, I have secured enough funding to stage one public event, that would be open to any female competitor from anywhere, regardless of her level of development or accomplishments within bodybuilding.

The event would not be judged by anyone with a financial stake in the outcome of the show, nor would any of the competitors be trained by any of the persons judging the event. I would propose that the fan vote should count for a certain percentage of the outcome, but would leave that decision to the membership.

Following this year's Olympia, I plan to make a very unique request to Jim Manion, President of the NPC, who remains an ardent supporter of women's bodybuilding: continue to sanction women's bodybuilding at the amateur level and grant them pro status within the FBBF. Of course, the FBBF would also have the option of recruiting talent into its ranks. That way, his business isn't hurt by the loss of female bodybuilding within the IFBB as NPC bodybuilding women would still have a place to compete after winning a national championship.

I'm open to all input and ideas, but I want one point abundantly clear - this has to be something that a large number of women want, or else it will never go anywhere. This is your chance and the ball truly is in your court.

[Maxt]

I already support the FBBF. I will follow this situation closely. Let us bring some more people on board?

[fbbhubby]

Are you saying that the reason that women would compete in the FBBF is that there won't be anywhere else to compete? If IFBB continues to hold events, as is currently the case, then why compete in this new organization? If the IFBB folds up fbb next year, then this makes sense as it gives a chance to compete. Alternately, if you hold an event before the IFBB shuts out fbb and it is a success, then the IFBB should take a second look at fbb. However, if it is not a success, then the IFBB has another arguement to kill fbb.

I have problems with the statement "that would be open to any female competitor from anywhere, regardless of her level of development or accomplishments within bodybuilding". You could have a novice, fat, or anorexic woman competing on the same stage as a pro? You gotta have some standards. It's demeaning to the pro to be on stage with someone that clearly hasn't paid her dues or doesn't belong there.

The key here is the prize money. If it's not much, you won't get the attention from the higher pros and the resulting talent would not be at the level you need to hold subsequent events. It becomes a joke. If you have substantial prize money, you will get lots of attention. So you have funding....is it for the venue, etc. or prize money?

One avenue for prize money may be the Japanese. From my limited dealings and knowledge, they should be natural fans of fbb. The amazon look is very appealing to them. Also, they have a track record of outfunding the U.S. (Pride vs. the UFC) for extreme sports. You or Gene should have some members from Japan...maybe someone has contacts with Japanese promoters?

[Maxt]

The IFBB would have to endorse the FBBF at the pro level because their heart would not really be into it as it's not.

[KyleQuest]

Tre, I like the ambition and tenacity but, the women are not being "phased out" of the IFBB. This is not going to become a single gendered sport. There trying something new and there's a big difference. By the time October comes they may change there scheduling again anyway...

And just for a moment, ever think there are woman who may like the new direction in the IFBB? Among the woman, there's a large degree of variance in what bodybuilding should be.

As for this plan, I don't see structure. There needs to be a progression of authority and responsibility. Where does the buck stop in your plan? Someone who, in a heart beat, has the authority to make decision's.

For now, I believe the notion of jumping ship is unwarranted. And the continued discussion is only worsening the situation. Exacerbating fears and causing dissension. It should be tabled until we all see what transpires in October.

Have a great day..
~Rich

[Amanda Dunbar]

Rich... you don't know what goes on behind the scenes... don't speak from an uneducated point of view on this one. Fbbing is NOT good right now and will NOT get better. You cant always look at the picture being so rosey. This isn't the glass being half full... Fbbing is going nowhere and will be phased out of the pro's very soon.

Amanda

[Tre]

Tre, I like the ambition and tenacity but, the women are not being "phased out" of the IFBB. This is not going to become a single gendered sport. There trying something new and there's a big difference. By the time October comes they may change there scheduling again anyway...
*shakes head*

I'm glad you think I'm just making all of this up, but what's coming to fruition now has been at least 6 years in the making. Need I remind you that when the current Olympia organizers set this year's Olympia schedule, women's bodybuilding was NOT included. That is a fact. Jim Manion and Peter McGough lobbied as heavily as possible and AMI/David Pecker compromised and decided to let the women in and to place them in the Expo.

That's the reality.

Steve Weinberger added women's bodybuilding to his pro show and was very excited when over 30 women requested contracts. Eight weeks before the scheduled show date, he had *6* signed contracts in hand. Subsequent to that, 8 more women did enter, but as wonderful as those competitors were, 14 just doesn't cut it. I have not spoken with him directly, but a source very close to him confirms that he will repeat the NY Pro in 2006, but has no plans to include women's bodybuilding.

There are 2 open events left on the 2005 calendar. I have put in info requests to both promoters about the number of entries so far and should hear back from both sometime this week.

And just for a moment, ever think there are women who may like the new direction in the IFBB? Among the women, there's a large degree of variance in what bodybuilding should be.
I'm totally in support of this! I won't mind one bit if the IFBB changes its standard for female bodybuilding and if a number of women elect to remain and to compete with the new standard, then I will definitely be on board with my support.

My problem is if they (IFBB) get rid of it altogether and right now, that's what all indications are pointing towards. As stated previously, Jim Lorimer (as far as anyone knows) is the only promoter who intends to have women's bodybuilding on the program next year. If the numbers are strong for the Europa and Charlotte shows, then those promoters might also be convinced to bring it back.

But again, you've got to consider reality - as of this moment, the Ms. Olympia doesn't have a single corporate sponsor. Not one. That's very telling.

As for this plan, I don't see structure. There needs to be a progression of authority and responsibility. Where does the buck stop in your plan? Someone who, in a heart beat, has the authority to make decisions.

For now, I believe the notion of jumping ship is unwarranted. And the continued discussion is only worsening the situation. Exacerbating fears and causing dissension. It should be tabled until we all see what transpires in October.

You can't possibly be serious. It's a conversation that should've begun in earnest 6 years ago. Why can't you understand that at this point, there's nothing left? What exactly are people holding onto? For the past 6 years, it's been, "Let's wait and see what happens". Well, the final chapter is being written - the people who now run the Olympia don't want a Ms. Olympia and would rather have bikini models onstage instead.

What I personally am doing is offering a chance to compete on a stage where no conflicts of interest exist and where there are no concerns about marketability or anything else - just pure sport for sport's sake.

Understandably, Jim Manion is not making any public statements or decisions about anything related to women's bodybuilding until after this year's Olympia. At that time, I would love to have something on paper to present to him with regards to 'future bodybuilding' especially if the IFBB does decide to do away with the shows altogether. And based on the financial picture, that's exactly what they should do.

With respect to the organizational structure, that has to be up to them. Call me crazy, but the last thing women's bodybuilding needs is a new man to take charge. :) Seriously, this has to be something that they want and they've got to decide how it will run. The stuff you're asking for can only begin to take shape once a group of motivated women starts communicating and develop a mission statement, plan of action, and organizational structure. The part I'm doing is giving them a place to display their talents, if they want it.

I've already done the fundraising and as of today, we've now got a volunteer onboard who has a lot more event planning experience than I do. Additionally, we have someone already on the lookout for suitable venues in Germany.

This is an opportunity, not a cause of dissension in the ranks.

[Tre]

I already support the FBBF. I will follow this situation closely. Let us bring some more people on board?

Thanks, Maxt. We've got one top-level amateur onboard who plans to compete. If we set a target date of August 2006, then that allows us plenty of time to spread the word *and* to find out more about just what the IFBB's plans are. As I've stated elsewhere, it would be great if the IFBB gets rid of women's PRO bodybuilding and the NPC becomes affiliated with the FBBF for its women bodybuilders.

Some people call it wishful thinking, but I prefer to think of it as setting a goal and going for it.

[KyleQuest]

There's no education beyond basic reading comprehension required to see there are women's, yes I did say women's in general, events on the schedule for this October. That's why I believe in giving the benefit of the doubt for now. I know is difficult because faith and trust seem to be in limited supply lately.

If you believe having a negative outlook will help you stay healthy, sleep properly, and be your best in Vegas, then carry on.

I and my glasses will continue with mature patients and await more facts. As you said, Jim Manion is doing the same.

[Tre]

Are you saying that the reason that women would compete in the FBBF is that there won't be anywhere else to compete? If IFBB continues to hold events, as is currently the case, then why compete in this new organization? If the IFBB folds up fbb next year, then this makes sense as it gives a chance to compete. Alternately, if you hold an event before the IFBB shuts out fbb and it is a success, then the IFBB should take a second look at fbb. However, if it is not a success, then the IFBB has another arguement to kill fbb.

The representatives of major supplement companies - for which the entire industry of competitive bodybuilding exists, mind you - are all saying the same thing: "Women's bodybuilding doesn't sell supplements and this is the reason we do not sponsor their contests."

Well, women bodybuilders certainly *buy* lots of supplements, but you cannot fault the companies for making sound business decisions. The 2002 Ms. O prejudging sold over 75% of the 1600-seat theater at Mandalay Bay at $50/ticket, but pro event promoters don't want to have to rely on ticket sales to get a show to the break-even point. (You've been around awhile, so I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but I feel that I need to include some points of information for the general reader who may not have been around the scene as long)

I have problems with the statement "that would be open to any female competitor from anywhere, regardless of her level of development or accomplishments within bodybuilding". You could have a novice, fat, or anorexic woman competing on the same stage as a pro? You gotta have some standards. It's demeaning to the pro to be on stage with someone that clearly hasn't paid her dues or doesn't belong there.
I understand where you're coming from, but at this point, as a promoter, I want warm bodies. I'd love to have 12 Robin Parkers onstage, but I want to be realistic about my expectations. Yes, there need to be standards - say, a top-10 or top-15 placing at USAs or Nationals - but I want to leave open the possibility of being blown away by a newcomer.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I'd love to see a stage filled with female bodybuilders and at this point, I don't want anyone to feel excluded. Who knows - maybe if this thing takes off the FBBF might have its own separate amateur and pro divisions in the future.

The key here is the prize money. If it's not much, you won't get the attention from the higher pros and the resulting talent would not be at the level you need to hold subsequent events. It becomes a joke. If you have substantial prize money, you will get lots of attention. So you have funding....is it for the venue, etc. or prize money?

I'm not sure why prize money would be necessary. After all, almost everything I've read in the past several years indicates that the women who compete don't do it for the money. What I have in hand right now is the money to stage an event. If companies or individuals want to offer prize money, I'm sure it would be more than welcome, but looking at the long-term, I was thinking more about a profit-sharing arrangement between the organization, the promoters, and its members.

One avenue for prize money may be the Japanese. From my limited dealings and knowledge, they should be natural fans of fbb. The amazon look is very appealing to them. Also, they have a track record of outfunding the U.S. (Pride vs. the UFC) for extreme sports. You or Gene should have some members from Japan...maybe someone has contacts with Japanese promoters?
This is something that should certainly be pursued, especially given one group's recent interest in bringing about 15 IFBB pros over to Japan to become bodybuilding 'characters' that are expected to be used in a variety of marketing campaigns. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I believe they are planning to schedule a competition for the spring as well, but not all the details have been made public or even shared very far outside their circle at this point.

[Tre]

Rich... you don't know what goes on behind the scenes... don't speak from an uneducated point of view on this one. Fbbing is NOT good right now and will NOT get better. You cant always look at the picture being so rosey. This isn't the glass being half full... Fbbing is going nowhere and will be phased out of the pro's very soon.

Amanda's right - the decision-making process is something that most fans never have any idea about. All the signs point to one thing - how many more of them should we ignore?

[Amanda Dunbar]

Rich.... wake up... your posts are getting ridiculous. This is serious and you aren't seeing the full picture. Something needs to be done. Even the amateur division is feeling it, look at Jrs. It's not about the pro's anymore, its FEMALE BODYBUILDING as a whole.

Amanda

[Tre]

There's no education beyond basic reading comprehension required to see there are women's, yes I did say women's in general, events on the schedule for this October. That's why I believe in giving the benefit of the doubt for now. I know is difficult because faith and trust seem to be in limited supply lately.

If you believe having a negative outlook will help you stay healthy, sleep properly, and be your best in Vegas, then carry on.

I and my glasses will continue with mature patients and await more facts. As you said, Jim Manion is doing the same.
Have you ever questioned for even a single moment why women's bodybuilding wasn't included when the original Olympia schedule was set? Now that it's been added, do you question at all why it's being stuck in the Expo hall as opposed to a proper venue? Do you question at all why the organizers cannot locate a single sponsor for the event?

If you haven't thought about those things, please do, and then come back and tell me how faith and trust factor into the equation.

Amanda's frustrated, because she can see the reality, which is clear as day. It's not about being negative - that's just your opinion, because you're making the choice to be in denial about the facts that are being presented to you. This is about taking a POSITIVE step and being proactive - the end of the line within the IFBB is visible, so why not step up and create their own party?

I don't understand why you're opposed to that, but to each his own. The women who elect to strike out and start something new will have my full support.

[KyleQuest]

This is not about female bodybuilding but, an ideal of what it should be. I know you'd be ticked by the outcome of the JR's but, I am not a judge. If anything, I actually found Shannon semi resembling another blonde we both know....

And, I see pretty well thank you...

How many times do you exect me (or anyone) to hear "things need to change." Well it is and as I have been told so many times before, "Go with the flow"

Tre' as I said, I like the ambition but, feel the timing is off. It's not the IFBB alone that's keeping the sport held down.

[Amanda Dunbar]

Rich -

You're talking in circles.... And no, shannon doesn't resemble Colette. I have no beef about Shannon winning. I have issues with how others were judged, etc. Not "shannon". Shannon is awesome, I met her in OKC. This is not a "shannon" issue, its an overall judging standard on that level.... but what tre is referring to, is bigger than Jrs... it's been a slow process for a while now. The end is in sight and as stated, the finish line is become closer and closer. Very disappointing because I feel I came into the sport about 10 years too late. My Olympia dreams/ambitions are shot. If there is an "olympia" for me, it'll be held at some local Golds Gym, ha ha.

Amanda

[Tre]

Tre' as I said, I like the ambition but, feel the timing is off. It's not the IFBB alone that's keeping the sport held down.

Do you know when the last-ever AAU bodybuilding event was held? I do, because I was there.

The people who ran that federation and the members who were a part of it allowed it to die instead of trying something new.

Lesson - Don't wait until the bitter end to decide, "Oh, I guess we should do something now."

You seize opportunity when it's there - that's how things get done in this country.

[KyleQuest]

If I'm talking in circles, you know how I was driven there!!! :D

Yes Tre', let it die first, then mourn, then rebuild... Nothing will change if it is done too quickly... What lesson's will be learned if you run in and try to fix it now? Time needs to pass... Let the hands be dealt by the IFBB.

In some incarnation, female bodybuilding will live on for years and years. That is what you have to know and have faith in. Amanda, you may not be 10 years to late. You may in fact be 10 years too early!

And, if there's one thing Amanda does know for certain, is that I support what I believe in. When I feel it's time, I will be there with gun's a blazin'. It may be in a day, a year, who knows.

And she sooooo... does resemble her!!! Come on... similar structure strenghts and weaknesses. Blonde hair, big blues, and breast. I'd guarantee if I photoshop'd there faces I could fool alot of people... Maybe not you and I but, many....

[Tre]

Yes Tre', let it die first, then mourn, then rebuild... Nothing will change if it is done too quickly... What lessons will be learned if you run in and try to fix it now? Time needs to pass... Let the hands be dealt by the IFBB.
The lessons have already been learned because the hand was dealt 6 years ago.
In some incarnation, female bodybuilding will live on for years and years. That is what you have to know and have faith in. Amanda, you may not be 10 years to late. You may in fact be 10 years too early!
No one is talking about the death of female bodybuilding, because there will be women lifting and training from now until the end of time. What we're talking about the elimination of COMPETITIVE female bodybuilding at the pro level within the IFBB. Don't try to confuse the issue here, because I can assure you I'm way too sharp for that.
And, if there's one thing Amanda does know for certain, is that I support what I believe in. When I feel it's time, I will be there with gun's a blazin'. It may be in a day, a year, who knows.
Hey, that's fine. Support or don't support, I really don't care. No offense, but my interest is in the people who do care and who are eager to explore possible alternatives. At some point, maybe you'll come to understand why the IFBB being the 'only game in town' was a problem, or maybe you won't. But for starters, I'll just let you know that if the IFBB actually had to compete for members in the U.S. and Canada, it would be conducting its business a lot differently. By having a monopoly, they've never been accountable to either the fans or the competitors and over time the result has been increasingly inferior product value.

Look, I'd have no problem if they came out and announced tomorrow that Monica Brant, Tara Scotti, Latisha Wilder, and Debbie Leung would be entered in the Ms. Olympia this October. And if those 4 women swept the top 4 spots, I'd be totally supportive of that. I'm a very simple schmoe - at the end of the day, I just want to see beautiful women posing and flexing onstage in a display of physique artistry that I cannot see at any local gym.

The IFBB is seeking to take that away from me, and my nature is why I feel that muscular women flexing onstage is something worth fighting for. You don't feel the same way, but I don't see your purpose in trying to discourage others from pursuing alternatives.

After all, competition serves the greater good.

[Imystify]

At some point, maybe you'll come to understand why the IFBB being the 'only game in town' was a problem, or maybe you won't. But for starters, I'll just let you know that if the IFBB actually had to compete for members in the U.S. and Canada, it would be conducting its business a lot differently. By having a monopoly, they've never been accountable to either the fans or the competitors and over time the result has been increasingly inferior product value.


yeah, this becomes really apparenet when looking abroad. I remember Nabba NZ being HUGE and much more respected, along with WNBF/INBF (I think the acronym is right but correct me if not).

[Amanda Dunbar]

I know NABBA Australia is big... I'd compete in NABBA I think... I need to do more research. Who knows.

Amanda

[Tre]

I know NABBA Australia is big... I'd compete in NABBA I think... I need to do more research. Who knows.

I wouldn't mind seeing NABBA do more in the U.S., but as far as the amateur iron game is concerned, I swear by the NPC.

Perhaps, however, you'd consider moving to the FBBF if the IFBB decides that it is going to dissolve pro women's bodybuilding? I know it's a longshot, but I'm going to ask Jim Manion to continue sanctioning women's bodybuilding at the amateur level (which he intends anyway) and then granting FBBF pro status to those who advance through his NPC ranks. That way, the NPC and its promoters don't lose any money and that IFBB is able to easily achieve its goal of getting rid of women's bodybuilding as we know it (and love it)
.

[Maxt]

Could you get FBBF Promoters a sanction to extend FBBF invitations to NPC Amateurs for FBBF Pro-Am Events with no NPC penalty? Things like that can be negotiable for a fee, you know?

[Tre]

Could you get FBBF Promoters a sanction to extend FBBF invitations to NPC Amateurs for FBBF Pro-Am Events with no NPC penalty? Things like that can be negotiable for a fee, you know?

He and I had a conversation a while ago and he stated that any NPC member may compete in any other physique event without penalty so long as there are no prizes at stake.

Yes, there have been multiple cases of women doing Fitness America, Ms. Fitness, etc and then coming to the NPC before advancing to the IFBB, but I'm just stating what the official policy is.

So, as of this time, NPC women could compete in the FBBF and then return to the NPC without concern.

[Maxt]

And since there would be no IFBB Womens Pro Division to compete with the FBBF could an NPC Amateur that got invited to an FBBF Invitational Pro-Am then won it accept the prize along with an invitation to an FBBF Pro Card?

[Zennie]

Rich -

You're talking in circles.... And no, shannon doesn't resemble Colette. I have no beef about Shannon winning. I have issues with how others were judged, etc. Not "shannon". Shannon is awesome, I met her in OKC. This is not a "shannon" issue, its an overall judging standard on that level.... but what tre is referring to, is bigger than Jrs... it's been a slow process for a while now. The end is in sight and as stated, the finish line is become closer and closer. Very disappointing because I feel I came into the sport about 10 years too late. My Olympia dreams/ambitions are shot. If there is an "olympia" for me, it'll be held at some local Golds Gym, ha ha.

Amanda

Hey Amanda, stick around because there will be a revolution, and it will be televised. I have to admit that one problem is there are too many male judges over female bodybuilding contests. When I see the number of potential corporate sponsors that can benefit from the demographic reach of female bodybuilders -- and I've talked to some company reps about this -- I know it's just a matter of force and time.

[Zennie]

This is a no-nonsense, no-BS approach to competitive aspect of female bodybuilding.

As of this moment, all indications are that the IFBB will be phasing out female bodybuilding within the next couple of years. As I write this today, there is exactly one promoter in the entirety of the U.S. and Canada who plans to have a pro women's bodybuilding event on his stage in 2006 and that's Jim Lorimer's Ms. International competition. I hope that promoters like Ed & Betty Pariso will also have the women back next year, but if the participation isn't good this September, there's a strong chance that show will vanish, too.

I have considered a number of solutions that would allow the current group of pro women to remain an active part of the IFBB (one idea is to swell the current pro ranks by awarding an additional 12-15 pro cards this year), but having zero corporate sponsors willing to finance their events makes this a virtual impossibility. The sentiment that's being expressed by a lot of the top pro men and the companies that sponsor them is "we're tired of the women bodybuilders competing at the expense of the men's prize money".

So, the solution I'm proposing to the women bodybuilders throughout the world is this - form and compete in your own organization that's set upon your own standards of bodybuilding excellence. At the time of this writing, I have secured enough funding to stage one public event, that would be open to any female competitor from anywhere, regardless of her level of development or accomplishments within bodybuilding.

The event would not be judged by anyone with a financial stake in the outcome of the show, nor would any of the competitors be trained by any of the persons judging the event. I would propose that the fan vote should count for a certain percentage of the outcome, but would leave that decision to the membership.

Following this year's Olympia, I plan to make a very unique request to Jim Manion, President of the NPC, who remains an ardent supporter of women's bodybuilding: continue to sanction women's bodybuilding at the amateur level and grant them pro status within the FBBF. Of course, the FBBF would also have the option of recruiting talent into its ranks. That way, his business isn't hurt by the loss of female bodybuilding within the IFBB as NPC bodybuilding women would still have a place to compete after winning a national championship.

I'm open to all input and ideas, but I want one point abundantly clear - this has to be something that a large number of women want, or else it will never go anywhere. This is your chance and the ball truly is in your court.

...And how many times have I been saying this?? It will catch fire, but the right match has not yet been struck.

[Nicole]

LMAO!! I'm sorry, I just couldn't get past the first entry...haven't even read the rest of the posts. I was just stuck at "...cutting into the men's prize money". WHAT?! The fems get, but a fraction, a drop in the bucket if you will.

[Tre]

LMAO!! I'm sorry, I just couldn't get past the first entry...haven't even read the rest of the posts. I was just stuck at "...cutting into the men's prize money". WHAT?! The fems get, but a fraction, a drop in the bucket if you will.

Well, the guys have been saying it for quite some time, but now they're becoming a bit more vocal about it. It's not that the women are taking all that much...the guys see it as a problem that you're taking any at all. And to a person, every one of your primary event sponsors will back up what they're saying and the argument is simple (get used to this, because I'm repeating it a lot nowadays): "Women bodybuilders don't sell supplements."

You have to keep in mind that the competitive bodybuilding industry exists for one purpose, and it's not to determine who has the best physiques in the world - its only job is to sell supplements. That's the beginning, middle, and the end.

Most people who compete are totally comfortable with that...or aren't aware of it. Most fans are totally comfortable with that...or aren't aware of it. ALL the major sponsors are totally comfortable with that, and that's the reason they choose not to fund women's bodybuilding events or athlete contracts (despite the fact that you buy their products).

Me, I'm totally comfortable with it and that's why I'm wholeheartedly supporting AMI and the IFBB in their attempts to terminate women's pro bodybuilding. That doesn't mean it will happen, I'm just saying that I hope they get their wish.

[airnel]

count me in! if fbbf is a possiblity i am willing to volunteer!

[Zennie]

Well, the guys have been saying it for quite some time, but now they're becoming a bit more vocal about it. It's not that the women are taking all that much...the guys see it as a problem that you're taking any at all. And to a person, every one of your primary event sponsors will back up what they're saying and the argument is simple (get used to this, because I'm repeating it a lot nowadays): "Women bodybuilders don't sell supplements."

You have to keep in mind that the competitive bodybuilding industry exists for one purpose, and it's not to determine who has the best physiques in the world - its only job is to sell supplements. That's the beginning, middle, and the end.

Most people who compete are totally comfortable with that...or aren't aware of it. Most fans are totally comfortable with that...or aren't aware of it. ALL the major sponsors are totally comfortable with that, and that's the reason they choose not to fund women's bodybuilding events or athlete contracts (despite the fact that you buy their products).

Me, I'm totally comfortable with it and that's why I'm wholeheartedly supporting AMI and the IFBB in their attempts to terminate women's pro bodybuilding. That doesn't mean it will happen, I'm just saying that I hope they get their wish.

Women Bodybuilders don't need to push supplements. But they can sell cars, bikes, makeup, haircare products, IPods, PDA's, and just about anything a person between the age of 16 and 34 wants to buy.

Geech, the total ignorance of our culture never stops amazing me at all. (Tre, don't misread this as applying to what you're posting -- no. It applies to the male bodybuilders and the mind-set you point to) But that's good because it means we can show the way.

[Nicole]

Maybe the reps should spend more time on seeking these outside sponsorships. I agree, we can sell all those things. Maybe, just maybe with the right fbb in the adds, it will help bring a little more positive attention to the female side of the sport.
...and then I fell off the bed and woke up. Ah, in a perfect world...one can dream though can't they?

[Tre]

Women Bodybuilders don't need to push supplements. But they can sell cars, bikes, makeup, haircare products, IPods, PDA's, and just about anything a person between the age of 16 and 34 wants to buy.

Geech, the total ignorance of our culture never stops amazing me at all. (Tre, don't misread this as applying to what you're posting -- no. It applies to the male bodybuilders and the mind-set you point to) But that's good because it means we can show the way.

Zennie, I totally understand what you're saying and it's a concept I've been pushing for over 5 years now with zero success. To a person, every potentially marketable bodybuilder or fitness athlete I've consulted with on this issue has felt that getting a "supplement company contract" was the be all, end all of their existence. They totally discount the fact that there are some top-level competitors who are being paid $25,000/year by x-supplement seller, but that that stipend is contingent upon making 30-35 weekend appearances throughout that year. Is it really worth it to have to travel that much? Let's just say that a lot of those offers have been rejected over the years. In recent times, many companies are increasingly using local talent for various events in order to trim their own travel expenses, so the amount of money to spread around is actually in a slight decline right now.

You obviously know what you're talking about here. Are you willing to come onboard with a new group and serve as a lead marketing consultant? In addition to selling the new organizational idea itself, you could also help to put the talent in contact with companies who would benefit from using strong women to help sell their products. Someone needs to do it...why not you(us)?

[Tre]

Maybe the reps should spend more time on seeking these outside sponsorships. I agree, we can sell all those things. Maybe, just maybe with the right fbb in the adds, it will help bring a little more positive attention to the female side of the sport.
...and then I fell off the bed and woke up. Ah, in a perfect world...one can dream though can't they?

The IFBB has its own magazines - Muscle & Fitness, Flex, Shape, Men's Fitness, etc. - and yet it has made the conscious decision *not* to promote you guys at all...not even within its own publications!

Please tell me what $200/year buys an IFBB "pro" - I'm dying to know the answer to that question. If I know the answer to that, then maybe I can better understand why people seek IFBB "pro" status.

[mangamuscle]

This is my opinion, but the problem is tha bodybuilding as a whole is dying. I mean, let's get real, has it become mainstream like videogames or wrestling? Does the average consumer 19-34 is interested in looking as a top contender at the olympia? The ugly truth is that money is drying up even for the male competitions, so a typical reaction is to blame someone, in this case the women division, for taking the money away. I think that the women division has a wider appeal if (and only if) is marketed correctly. Forget about striations and veins, give the mainstream public a sexy wonder woman and they will buy it. It will take time, you can't expect to start from day one with a full fledged division that pays big bucks, but I know that there are a lot of people (yes amanda, you are one of them) that would compete even if the only money involved was a pre-paid bus and hotel night, so it is feasible on the long run. remember, "if you build it, they will come" :)

[Maxt]

STFU Noob. You are not being honest. Bodybuilding has loyal fans and is a participatory sport. I have read that they want to keep the atmosphere supportive to FBB's here, so I do not appreciate your remarks because I do not come here for negativity toward women or my sport overall. Go back to your comic books.

[mangamuscle]

STFU Noob. You are not being honest. Bodybuilding has loyal fans and is a participatory sport. I have read that they want to keep the atmosphere supportive to FBB's here, so I do not appreciate your remarks because I do not come here for negativity toward women or my sport overall. Go back to your comic books.
:confused: I would like to know where did you got the idea that I am not supportive of female bodybuilding. Female bodybuilders got my utmost respect for doing so much eventhough they receive little in return. I am just telling reality as it is, running away from reality and hiding in some sort of fantasy (call it "comic books" or "bodybuilding is mainstream") it is not what I wrote about in this board, mind you. I am a fan but to support female bodybuilding we need more than a few loyal supporters, we need to get corporate sponsors, that is the reality, whether we like it or not. It can take time, but I think it can be done, but it will take time and work.

[Maxt]

It certainly would not have been from your previous comment. :cool: I got the idea you are not supportive of female bodybuilding by your biased negative comment and the stupid way you try to preach to an audience that although may you may not be familiar with, is full of female competitors at the status of contender or better and fans that are very knowledgeable and supportive about the sport.

[mangamuscle]

I got the idea you are not supportive of female bodybuilding by your biased negative comments and the stupid way you try to preach
This time I will ask clearly, what part I wrote that was "not supportive of female bodybuilding" and/or "biased negative comments". I expect a straight answer.

[Tre]

Mangamuscle, don't mind Maxt - he's overly sensitive right now in that he's dedicated much of his life to being a serious and sincere fan of women's bodybuilding. I feel that he misread the underlying text within your post, but I surely latched on and hope that others will feed on the wisdom you've shared.

Right now, the women have nothing, absolutely nothing to lose, so making the leap to something new would require a lot less faith than in the past. As much as I want the 'superwomen' like Iris to be involved, I'd also *love* to have the support of someone like Susanne Niederhauser, who has the premier "bodybuilding lite" physique physique in the entire world. I believe that the two can indeed co-exist within the competitive arena, even if assigned to two separate divisions within the new organization.

There's a lot to work out, but to start things off, we'll need communication and lots of it between the women who are most affected by what's going on in the world of IFBB bodybuilding. This is the right idea and the time is now to organize and to formulate a plan of action that can truly lead women's bodybuilding in the 21st century back to the prominence it enjoyed in the mid- to late-80s.

[rpflex]

Please tell me what $200/year buys an IFBB "pro" - I'm dying to know the answer to that question. If I know the answer to that, then maybe I can better understand why people seek IFBB "pro" status.

Tre, I think the answer is prestige. To be granted professional status means having proven you can hang with the best of the best, that you know your sh*t, and that you have earned a place of honor. After all, how many professional bodybuilders are there at this point in time or from the beginning? Not too many, so it becomes significant to make one's mark, so to speak.

Of course, I can tell you many more things that you loose by becoming a pro, but we are all to aware to those. :(

Does a pro card really cost $200/year? :eek:

[genex]

At least over the last few years they have started to actually laminate the pro cards. I remember when Beth Roberts got hers, a friend or maybe she had to go laminate it herself since it was just a paper thing.

gene

[KyleQuest]

Hahahaha... need some ice Nicole? Maybe an aspirin? Did you knock your noggin, bang your elbow, or break your keister when you fell out of the bed?

Seriously Nicole, the women can do a lot for themselves in the long run. I remember Rachel McLish modeling in advertisements, even Ericca Kern too. My friend Pamela was just in a nationally aired Tv commercial earlier this year. I know I've been spoiled by knowing some rare individuals who are highly marketable. But, it's more than possible for a lot of women. Especially for you!!

As someone who has hit the pavement looking for support, I can tell you it's not easy. The return on investment is the end all be all. In whatever market you seeking out. And, the numbers we're working against make it increasingly difficult. But, not impossible...

Have a great day folks...
~Rich

[Gina Davis]

Tre, I think the answer is prestige. To be granted professional status means having proven you can hang with the best of the best, that you know your sh*t, and that you have earned a place of honor. After all, how many professional bodybuilders are there at this point in time or from the beginning? Not too many, so it becomes significant to make one's mark, so to speak.

Of course, I can tell you many more things that you loose by becoming a pro, but we are all to aware to those. :(

Does a pro card really cost $200/year? :eek:

Hi Robin,

I really liked your answer here. You hit it right on the head. Amanda and I have a lot of talks about the state of the IFBB for women once you become a pro. It all seems very disheartening and like a dead-end street to her and I disagree. Suffice it to say that when I lay my head down on my pillow each night...I AM A PRO FEMALE BODYBUILDER. Words, or rationale cannot explain it. Once you have accomplished this feat, it will all become crystal clear.

And yes ma'am...$200 for a paper-thin card that has to be immediately laminated or disintegrate upon contact! lol!

G

[Tre]

Gina - Thanks for your honest, heartfelt post. I appreciate your response on this forum.

I hope that you will not perceive this as a personal attack on you, but I agree with Amanda. The IFBB of today is not the IFBB of 5, 10, or 20 years ago. As I've stated multiple times, IFBB bodybuilding has nothing to do with who has the best physiques. It exists to sell supplements and they're very open and honest about the fact that this is a business and that women bodybuilders cannot sell the powder.

That's why I'm supporting their desires to terminate their professional women's bodybuilding division. It's a smart move for their business and is at least a couple of years overdue.

As I see it, Gina, you're a professional female bodybuilder, yes, but the IFBB didn't have a thing to do with that. You'll see it differently, but if anything, the IFBB seeks to *invalidate* that reality instead of the other way around.

If membership alone is its own reward, then I think you should certainly continue your membership. But I do not believe that the IFBB pro promoters should continue putting on women's bodybuilding events.

[Amanda Dunbar]

After much talk with National level (SHW) bodybuilder and soon to be pro, MARCUS HALEY, I quickly realized how women really get screwed over at any level... especially on the pro's though. I can understand why in certain cases, but for those like Gina Davis, or Colette Nelson, there is no reason why they can't be a positive and very beneficial part of marketing/sales to any company. When a lot of these MEN turn pro, they have contracts waiting for them... a lot starting around $50K per year, for what? To LIVE your life the way you would anyway? To go to shows, sit at a booth, talk to people, sell products, do photo shoots, and guest pose? I think I'd stay in shape year round in order to live this as a career... but do women have that opportunity? NO.

This is where the problem is, there is no EQUALITY HERE. Pro card or not, yes Gina you busted your ass getting there, I know you did... Robin has worked YEARS upon YEARS (sorry robin haha) to get where she is today and attain the level of muscularity/density she has, yet NO-REWARD thus far... I dont know, to me I see the appeal of a pro card and to be at that level and KNOW you are the best-of-the-best. That is AWESOME! I never dreamed initially I'd even be at the level I'm at NOW. I looked at one of my now closest friends, Elena Seiple, and never thought I'd get HALF of what she has... and scary enough, I'LL BE STANDING ON STAGE WITH HER NEXT MONTH!! :) That to me is full circle and sure I'd love a pro card, wouldn't we all??? But I've gotten my rewards so far and anything beyond what I'm doing now is just icing on the cake!!

But wouldn't it be nice to turn pro and actually have SOMETHING waiting for me, man, even if it's a REAL photoshoot/article with MUSCLE MAG, FLEX, whatever... to celebrate my pro status!!! lol we can't even get that!! How pathetic?? I just never realized the financial rewards there are out there for men, so now that I've seen it.... sorry everyone, my head is very negative towards where this sport is going and has BECOME.

Amanda

[hans]

Amanda and I have a lot of talks about the state of the IFBB for women once you become a pro. It all seems very disheartening and like a dead-end street to her and I disagree. Suffice it to say that when I lay my head down on my pillow each night...I AM A PRO FEMALE BODYBUILDER. Words, or rationale cannot explain it. Once you have accomplished this feat, it will all become crystal clear.

Gina - Turning pro is an amazing accomplishment that you should be immensely proud of, as I know you are. Like Robin said, that little piece of unlaminated paper-thin card means you're a member of an elite group. I'm sure every woman that ever steps onstage dreams of getting there - and very few ever do. But I think the reason it seems like a dead-end to some competitors is that as well as being the culmination of years of training and competing, it should also be the beginning of something. Doors should open once you turn pro, the magazines should be clamoring for photo shoots and interviews, you should be in demand for appearances at shows - and like Amanda said, that does happen for the guys. Not every female pro chooses the same route Joanna did, and I know there are female pros (like Lisa Aukland) that are very happy with doing demanding full-time jobs outside the industry, but I don't know of any that are able to live the kind of lifestyle that you see male pros living. In other words you deserve more - especially someone as feminine, and therefore marketable, as you.

Hans

[genex]

Also, I think you can make something out of it for yourself. There's a lot of avenues to pursue that dont' have to necessarily be 100% in the industry. Gina you are extremely marketable so I am sure you can make some things happen.

gene

[Amanda Dunbar]

Great post Hans.... I couldn't have said it better, maybe that's why you are a journalist. ha ha. ;) Seriously though, you are dead on. She DESERVES MORE.

Amanda

[jasons805]

I don't really see doors opening for guys either. I mean besides being pop in the bbing mag world where else does anyone care? I think it's just about tapping into a fan base that goes to websites not shows. The money is there just not always spent in the right place. Maybe a site that is a pay site that every female muscle site provides a bit of content, and all the revenue goes to the new formation of a new pro fbbing federation. However you do it (I have not read everything) there has to be a way I know fbbing fans spend alot of money.

[rpflex]

I don't really see doors opening for guys either.

Jason, Phillip Heath who just won the Jr. Nationals, was given a Weider contract even before he stepped foot on the stage at a pro-qualifier. That door opened damned fast for good reason - marketability.

[rpflex]

At least over the last few years they have started to actually laminate the pro cards. I remember when Beth Roberts got hers, a friend or maybe she had to go laminate it herself since it was just a paper thing.

gene

Definitely, low rent. :rolleyes:

[jasons805]

Jason, Phillip Heath who just won the Jr. Nationals, was given a Weider contract even before he stepped foot on the stage at a pro-qualifier. That door opened damned fast for good reason - marketability.
Besides us who has heard of him and who else will? So what he gets a contract for what enough to live off of?(if lucky) There are alot of girl's who have real jobs and make good money without contracts. If you had a contract with Weider would I respect you anymore? No I already know that you have been in this sport for a long time and busted your ass. I just don't see it; are these guys really getting any main stream press? I don't think Big Ron on Leno is something to brag about. It was cute, but not someone who is popular besides in this world. So what maybe big guys sell more protein powder. I bet the women make more from their websites then the men do. I just think we need to find a better way to make the money work for the women in the sport.

[Tre]

Quoting Bill Cosby on "Nightline" tonite: "You can't fix something by telling people there's nothing wrong when there is something wrong."

[genex]

Oh sh*t, Tre's bringin in the Cos!

[hans]

Jason, Phillip Heath who just won the Jr. Nationals, was given a Weider contract even before he stepped foot on the stage at a pro-qualifier. That door opened damned fast for good reason - marketability.

Exactly Robin, great point.

Hans

[hans]

I don't really see doors opening for guys either. I mean besides being pop in the bbing mag world where else does anyone care?

You're talking about mainstream acceptance of pro bodybuilders, which is something completely different. That might or might not happen at some point in the future (personally I think bbing will never be a "mainstream" sport in that way, although the look you see on competitive bodybuilders will continue to subtly influence the mainstream's ideal of physical beauty). But most fbbers I talk to don't need or expect everybody to love how they look - they just want to be treated with respect and to get some degree of equality within the bodybuilding industry. That's what makes this so frustrating for them - it's just a basic minimum we are talking about here.

Like you said, as a bodybuilding fan, whether your favorite fbber has a sponsorship deal won't affect how you see them. But it might make a huge difference to them. However much they love bodybuilding, on a day-to-day level they need to make a living while still having the time and energy to focus on training and competing, and things like sponsorship can make a big difference. And I don't think there are many fbbers out there that are making $50k a year from their members' sites.

Hans

[Tre]

But most fbbers I talk to don't need or expect everybody to love how they look - they just want to be treated with respect and to get some degree of equality within the bodybuilding industry. That's what makes this so frustrating for them - it's just a basic minimum we are talking about here.

I, too, sense the frustration, because what they're asking for - respect & equality - is entirely reasonable. BUT, if you accept the lack of respect, then the power brokers assume you're content. Keep in mind that, on the issue of competitive women's bodybuilding, there is a *huge* gap between the IFBB's position and the NPC's position. I have to keep stressing this point - the two are not one and the same when it comes to women's bodybuilding.

Like you said, as a bodybuilding fan, whether your favorite fbber has a sponsorship deal won't affect how you see them. But it might make a huge difference to them...And I don't think there are many fbbers out there that are making $50k a year from their members' sites.

Most of your hallowed 'supplement company contracts' require dozens of appearances a year, for which there is no bonus pay. One unnamed fitness professional told me that she was offered a $30-32,000/year deal, but would be required to give up 25-30 weekends in order to fulfill her obligations to the company. Those deals aren't always what they're cracked up to be, but yes, it would at least be nice to have the OPTION.

The industry has said, "We are not going to market you" and this was going on long before AMI/David Pecker took control of Weider Publications. So, the onus is therefore on the women to market themselves and from what I've seen, the two main examples of have been Colette Nelson and Joanna Thomas.

As noted by Hans, C-Nel did a documentary about 5 years ago and has another one coming out soon. She's made countless appearances there in NYC, the largest media market in the world, and at one point, she even had her own fitness segment on morning television. She is one of the most beautiful female bodybuilders in the world and people are drawn to her personality, but she has gotten out, hustled, and created her own opportunities. That's why she's a commercial success.

Before doing the TLC piece, Joanna had an appearance in a 'mainstream' men's magazine (FHM or Maxim or something) that was talking about female bodybuilding. I think there were 2-3 interesting photos of Joanna looking most powerful and although I cannot put my finger on the mag right now, I do remember being proud of her although they did not give her a model credit.

There are other women doing high-profile projects as well, but these are things they've done on their own. The industry (I'm talking AMI/IFBB) isn't smart enough to say, "Hey - if we use these women bodybuilders to make money, then WE can make money, too."

On the paysite issue, $50K is a lot, yes, but there are several women earning an extra $10-20K or more a year from their non-nude sites. And it doesn't require giving up over half their weekends either. Some people would say that it's a problem that I even had to include "non-nude" in my description of the sites' content, but you can't focus on that, because that's not the key issue. I merely stated that so that the attackers know which brand of sites *I'm* talking about.

At this point, all I'm saying is that the women have a chance to seize control of their own future by acting now. Great change cannot occur overnight, but I think the re-invention of women's bodybuilding has to come from the women themselves.

NOTE: I am not arguing that bodybuilding has 'gone too far' or that it hasn't. By "re-invention", I'm talking in reference to the way women's bodybuilding is presented and sold (not sold) in the public marketplace. I am also indicating my desire to see it judged as a SPORT and not as a pageant.

Respectfully,
Tre'

[jasons805]

I think some people just expect things to be handed to them based on how they look. Maybe that happens for some guys and it pisses alot of women off. I also know fbbers who do something with their look in a positive way, and make a good living. If you expect to live off a web-site then your focus is in the wrong place. Anything worth having must be worked for. If you have a problem it's up to you to fix it not sit back and complain.

[rpflex]

Most of your hallowed 'supplement company contracts' require dozens of appearances a year, for which there is no bonus pay. One unnamed fitness professional told me that she was offered a $30-32,000/year deal, but would be required to give up 25-30 weekends in order to fulfill her obligations to the company. Those deals aren't always what they're cracked up to be, but yes, it would at least be nice to have the OPTION.

It's only fair to point out that her travel expenses would be covered, she would retain all proceeds from the sale of her photographs and promotional products, she would have the opportunity to meet all the fans and to cultivate more to visit her web site and she could have complimentary supplements for the run of her contract. The exposure would lead to bigger and better things if she represents the company well. I think that is more typical of the sort of arrangement that takes place. Granted, it's not a big pay day, but it beats doing nothing...

[Tre]

Oh sh*t, Tre's bringin in the Cos!

Yes, because it's time to bring some common sense to the discussion. Cos is cold and brutal...because that's what reality/honesty is sometimes.

[Tre]

Robin, all your points are well-taken. My statement was from the perspective of a pro fitness competitor who had rejected a large contract from one of the major supplement companies, because it would've required her to be away from home so much and she didn't feel the money was worth it. So, now she reps for them at her own convenience and receives a fee for each appearance. Additionally, she makes a few hundred a month from her website and she's totally content with what she's getting out of the industry (although she personally has issues with the fact that there's no effective drug testing program in place within the IFBB).

All good points aside, though, there are a number of women who reject booth appearances because they don't pay well enough. One woman said to me, "Look, I have a master's degree - I'm not going to stand around in a bikini all day cutting up protein bars for 150 dollars." I thought that was funny. :)

But now what you said really does beg the question of WHY there is no woman-owned supplement company out there? I know that Laura Mak has a line that she's brought out recently, but why haven't several female bodybuilders united, combined their resources, and started a supplement company of their own? We all know that's where the real money is in the business anyway. You start a company, you market it to women - especially women bodybuilders - and now all-of-a-sudden, you can finance your own shows. If the fitness and figure competitors begin to see the reality, then some of them, too, might cross over and join you.

There's nothing bigger and better than having ownership in your own company and therefore being able to make decisions as opposed to having them all made for you within the industry. As it stands right now, the Ms. Olympia performers - if they wish to compete in October - will *have* to appear in the Expo hall to do so. But if there was a sponsor that said, "If you don't put the women in the proper venue, we're withdrawing $50,000 in sponsorship money", you'd better believe they'd find a way to get the women onto the right program.

If you're staying within the IFBB, then be that company. The Ms. Olympia was cancelled 6 years ago. I know that the past cannot be undone, but if the collective had gotten together at that time and started their (your) own corporation, I'm willing to bet that we wouldn't be having this discussion today, and Flex 'n Femme would still be in FLEX magazine. At every step along the way, no one has been willing to step up and say 'enough is enough'. For some reason, there are people who still think they have something to lose if they should speak out. That's fine, but as a fan, the least I can do is to present all the facts and to do whatever I can to create an alternative.

In life, true powerlessness only comes when you're out of options. The problems weren't created overnight - it's taken 15 years to get to where we are today, so it seems only reasonable that it will take at least half that to get back what the art and industry once had. And since 6 years have already been wasted, I have to recommend acting sooner rather than later.

And who knows - if the IFBB feels threatened at losing its grip on them, they may decide to clean up their act with respect to women's pro bodybuilding.

A fan can only hope.

It's only fair to point out that her travel expenses would be covered, she would retain all proceeds from the sale of her photographs and promotional products, she would have the opportunity to meet all the fans and to cultivate more to visit her web site and she could have complimentary supplements for the run of her contract. The exposure would lead to bigger and better things if she represents the company well. I think that is more typical of the sort of arrangement that takes place. Granted, it's not a big pay day, but it beats doing nothing...

[genex]

Lana Dora of Lana's Egg Whites is probably the closest type person. Perhaps Lana could expand and offer more. Most of the supplement companies have the same suppliers and market the same products slightly differently.

[Zennie]

Tre, I like the ambition and tenacity but, the women are not being "phased out" of the IFBB. This is not going to become a single gendered sport. There trying something new and there's a big difference. By the time October comes they may change there scheduling again anyway...

And just for a moment, ever think there are woman who may like the new direction in the IFBB? Among the woman, there's a large degree of variance in what bodybuilding should be.

As for this plan, I don't see structure. There needs to be a progression of authority and responsibility. Where does the buck stop in your plan? Someone who, in a heart beat, has the authority to make decision's.

For now, I believe the notion of jumping ship is unwarranted. And the continued discussion is only worsening the situation. Exacerbating fears and causing dissension. It should be tabled until we all see what transpires in October.

Have a great day..
~Rich

I respectfully but strongly disagree with this. It's not logical for so many women bodybuilders to be without a sanctioning organization taylored specifically for them. The vast majority of judges are male in FBB contests -- a travesty. Plus, I've talked with potential corporate sponsors who generally employ "skinny small women" but listen and change their tune when I explain the number of eyeballs behind the women's side of the game.

No, it's time for a massive change: an organization specifically focused on staging events, promoting, and setting standard for FBB's -- and ran by FBBs. One that also is a full privately-held corporation. The IFBB has no clue how to market women -- none. FBB's are losing millions of potential dollars by being associated with the IFBB. Sorry, but it's a fact.

Respectfully, Zennie

[fbbhubby]

Betty Pariso and her husband Ed have started a supplement company called Cutting Edge Nutrition. Currently has 2 products; a thermogenic and a zero card protein powder. The thermogenic (Ripped & Ready) is really kick ass and we have most of our clients using it too.

And it has a picture of a hard core female bodybuilder on the label!! :D :D :D

[Zennie]

It's only fair to point out that her travel expenses would be covered, she would retain all proceeds from the sale of her photographs and promotional products, she would have the opportunity to meet all the fans and to cultivate more to visit her web site and she could have complimentary supplements for the run of her contract. The exposure would lead to bigger and better things if she represents the company well. I think that is more typical of the sort of arrangement that takes place. Granted, it's not a big pay day, but it beats doing nothing...

I agree with this. Many companies who use corporate spokes women don't employ those who come with a ready fan base -- many FBB's do. Plus, a savy FBB or their rep can negotiate a richer deal, and even engineer cross-promotional deals, too.

[Tre]

Betty Pariso and her husband Ed have started a supplement company called Cutting Edge Nutrition. Currently has 2 products; a thermogenic and a zero card protein powder. The thermogenic (Ripped & Ready) is really kick ass and we have most of our clients using it too.

And it has a picture of a hard core female bodybuilder on the label!! :D :D :D

Awesome! Let's get on board and support this effort!!

[Dr. Superhero]

I find it interesting that the fans and FBB's complain about this and that about where FBB is headed yada yada yada yet other than Betty Pariso how many other pro FBB or FBB fans have stepped up to the plate to put on a pro FBB event? Have you ever seen a FBB only event? Putting on an event is hard work, takes time and some $$, not really big dollars but enough that you need sponsors to pay the bill or be creative to keep it inexpensive, then when you get the Pro's at the event they act like such Divas sulking around not talking to fans (its a generalization but you all know who does it and of course it is not you). If you hate the state of FBB for god sake put on your own event. It does not have to be sanctioned by anyone. WHo are you going to piss off the IFBB and their one event? OOOOoooooo I might be barred from the IFBB OOOOoooooooo.... who cares at this point, what you don't realize at this point is that FBB is dead since AMI took over. BB in general is not a sport, it is an industry, and FBB freak out the general fitness mainstream audience and cannot appreciate FBB. Quit complaining ladies hike up your collective skirts and lead, follow or get out of the way....... I will be happy to help anyone that wants to put on an unsanctioned FBB event, judging setting up, planning whatever.

Rant is done.

[Dr. Superhero]

I don't mean FBB is dead, I take that back, it is very much alive and i love it but FBB as we knew it (cory everson) is dead. KEEP MOVING...... NOTHING TO SEE HERE...... KEEP MOVING (Cop waving people on past dead body)

[feminazi]

FBB is not the only sport losing sponsorship money, media attention and experiencing discrimination.

Face it, women's sports isn't selling. Period. The LPGA has tried for years to get the women at the forefront. Can you name any pro women golfers? The only reason women's golf is taking off now is beucae the corporate sponsors have figured out that women golfers buy a lot of stuff.

The women of tennis have to deal with the likes of the Kornakova's - who is more famous for her looks than her actual tennis playing. Poor Serena and Venus.

The loss of sponsorships - it's happened in women's cycling and women's soccer, to name a few. And look at the WNBA too. It's never panned out like they wanted it to. Ever even heard of the WPFL - women's football league? Magazines like Sports Illustrated for Women never took off.

What is this telling us?

It not just the mean ole IFBB -it's rampant - it's still a man's world out there. It seems to me that the world wants to view women atheletes as women first, athletes second...meaning that the gender hierarchy must be maintained.


What the IFBB sponsors don't realize is that Women OUTSPEND Men - look at the market for fitness apparel and shoes. Jeez, we spend a lot of money. Harness that consumer spending.

Ok, my feminist rant is over now.


I applaud Tre for coming up with a proactive solution rather than to just sit and watch FBB die a slow death like some of my other favorite sports.

[Zennie]

FBB is not the only sport losing sponsorship money, media attention and experiencing discrimination.

Face it, women's sports isn't selling. Period. The LPGA has tried for years to get the women at the forefront. Can you name any pro women golfers? The only reason women's golf is taking off now is beucae the corporate sponsors have figured out that women golfers buy a lot of stuff.

The women of tennis have to deal with the likes of the Kornakova's - who is more famous for her looks than her actual tennis playing. Poor Serena and Venus.

The loss of sponsorships - it's happened in women's cycling and women's soccer, to name a few. And look at the WNBA too. It's never panned out like they wanted it to. Ever even heard of the WPFL - women's football league? Magazines like Sports Illustrated for Women never took off.

What is this telling us?

It not just the mean ole IFBB -it's rampant - it's still a man's world out there. It seems to me that the world wants to view women atheletes as women first, athletes second...meaning that the gender hierarchy must be maintained.


What the IFBB sponsors don't realize is that Women OUTSPEND Men - look at the market for fitness apparel and shoes. Jeez, we spend a lot of money. Harness that consumer spending.

Ok, my feminist rant is over now.


I applaud Tre for coming up with a proactive solution rather than to just sit and watch FBB die a slow death like some of my other favorite sports.

Yes. This is what I was getting at...to a degree when I wrote this:
http://www.sportsbusinesssims.com/female.athletes.sports.marketing.sex.and.beauty.ht m

I think we're at a kind of cultural divide regarding women's sports in this country. But I must add that it took sports marketing specialists to craft an arguement to get corporate sponsors to pay attention to Women's Golf. The same can be done for FBBs.

[feminazi]

But I must add that it took sports marketing specialists to craft an arguement to get corporate sponsors to pay attention to Women's Golf. The same can be done for FBBs.


I doubt it took a specialist :p - it was probably a look at the purchasing power of women and current purchasing trends of women.

Women hold a great deal of clout in how $$ is spent. It used to be that women had to buy ugly clothes and shoes, clubs that didn't fit, gloves that didn't accommodate an engagement ring, gloves that left you with a stoo-pid tan line. You get the picture. Women who play golf tend to have more disposible income and leisure time. Why not sell directly to them?
SMART.

[Zennie]

Zennie, I totally understand what you're saying and it's a concept I've been pushing for over 5 years now with zero success. To a person, every potentially marketable bodybuilder or fitness athlete I've consulted with on this issue has felt that getting a "supplement company contract" was the be all, end all of their existence. They totally discount the fact that there are some top-level competitors who are being paid $25,000/year by x-supplement seller, but that that stipend is contingent upon making 30-35 weekend appearances throughout that year. Is it really worth it to have to travel that much? Let's just say that a lot of those offers have been rejected over the years. In recent times, many companies are increasingly using local talent for various events in order to trim their own travel expenses, so the amount of money to spread around is actually in a slight decline right now.

You obviously know what you're talking about here. Are you willing to come onboard with a new group and serve as a lead marketing consultant? In addition to selling the new organizational idea itself, you could also help to put the talent in contact with companies who would benefit from using strong women to help sell their products. Someone needs to do it...why not you(us)?

Hi. I would do this. What I'd like to gain (just to get this out of the way and be frank about it) is more content for my SBS site, as (1) it would be easier than my being just another big-mouthed, money-making consultant who "takes your watch and tells you what time it is" without generating results (all too common), and (2) force me to be creative in establishing deal relationships, plus (3) allow me to get the ball rolling faster, and (4) rope in the talents of sports management students by convincing them and their professors to take on "The Development of an FBB Organization" as a class project.

In a small way, I've already started. I've connected a couple of FBB friends with an online sponsor, and one of them already signed up with one -- they just need to get the links installed on their website.

This is for no charge to me, but just because I want to contribute to the resolution of these problems and I firmly believe that the women who do this should be making at least a living wage doing it, if not rich. Again, my primary business interest is in content for SBS because it drives traffic to my "monetized" website system, and that way I don't take focus away from my firm and my obligations to my business partners and shareholders, but can help solve this problem faced by FBBs. I'm even thinking about developing some kind of simulation game of the problem.

[Zennie]

I doubt it took a specialist :p - it was probably a look at the purchasing power of women and current purchasing trends of women.

Women hold a great deal of clout in how $$ is spent. It used to be that women had to buy ugly clothes and shoes, clubs that didn't fit, gloves that didn't accommodate an engagement ring, gloves that left you with a stoo-pid tan line. You get the picture. Women who play golf tend to have more disposible income and leisure time. Why not sell directly to them?
SMART.

Hi, I only state that because all the corporate sponsorship heads I know -- at Visa and Coca Cola, for example -- look at proposals (generally made using PowerPoint) sent to them by "properties." Properties are people establishing events -- like future Fbbuilder contests started by an FBB-ran organization. See? The properties sometimes hire sports marketing consultants.

[Beenaround]

Zennie, good to have you on board, and if things happen in a new direction for us, I would love to see your on a board of TRUSTees. LOL. But in all seriousness, maybe Gene or Tre can start a thread were if anybody interested in starting something new, do a survey to see who would be interested in say, setting up a meeting somewhere.
I know everybody must live in different states, but if it was a serious venture, then make one location and have everybody meet face to face to, minutes taking and all.
Yes???????

[Tre]

Welcome Zennie, and thanks!

And Michelle is - once again! - exactly right. As this movement takes shape, we should plan a get-together at some point within the next year to begin talking openly and in person about the formal structure and also about what goals we'd like to see achieved.

[Zennie]

Welcome Zennie, and thanks!

And Michelle is - once again! - exactly right. As this movement takes shape, we should plan a get-together at some point within the next year to begin talking openly and in person about the formal structure and also about what goals we'd like to see achieved.

Thanks Tre and Michelle; I'm honored to be a part of this, especially at this embryonic stage. Thanks for thinking of me. I do agree we should pick a place to meet in person at some point. The SF Bay Area's a beautiful place, and Gene and I are here in SF and Oakland, so...

[Tre]

Thanks Tre and Michelle; I'm honored to be a part of this, especially at this embryonic stage. Thanks for thinking of me. I do agree we should pick a place to meet in person at some point. The SF Bay Area's a beautiful place, and Gene and I are here in SF and Oakland, so...

Is Gene onboard??

[genex]

I'm definitely interested in what we can do. It would be great to host something up here as well. I can meet wherever though...

[Zennie]

Is Gene onboard??

Opps. Sorry if I jumped the gun, but it appears that he is; I guess I made an assumption based on posts and emails. But he confirmed, so no harm done by me.

[Beenaround]

Tre, I'm in!!! now lets find me a sponsor!! LOL!

[Tre]

Tre, how can the women even begin thinking about this until they know the potential ramifications of doing something like this?

FBBF sounds like a great idea but if it gets them banned from competing at IFBB shows, what's the incentive?

And I'm not being negative, it's a genuine question.

Do you begin preparing for a hurricane once the roads are flooded and the electricity is out?

Most people - I'm talking competitors and fans - are content with the status quo. That's why they're not seeking change. They don't care about it, because it's someone else's problem.

THAT'S FINE. I don't have a problem with those individuals or their belief in the IFBB.

But there are some individuals who, like myself, do not like what the IFBB has done to women's pro bodybuilding. So, we're communicating with one another in an effort to work towards positive change.

I have said for years that the biggest problem with the IFBB is that they do not have any competition in North America. As a result, they're not accountable to their competitors or their fans, and as such, they get away with putting an inferior product onstage relative to the amount fans pay to see it. Additionally, there are numerous anecdotes about the non-professional treatment of the competitors - such as making the Ms. Olympia an expo sideshow - which is a direct result of the IFBB *not* having to compete for members.

There are women who'd like to compete in fair bodybuilding events and who would like to be in control of the future of their own sport. Given your position within the industry, I think it's irresponsible of you to suggest that they should not investigate possible alternatives, as the freedom to choose is something that should be celebrated, not looked down upon.

But, to each his own, and I certainly will not seek to prevent anyone from expressing an opinion. Happy 4th of July, everyone.

[Tre]

Tre, I'm in!!! now lets find me a sponsor!! LOL!

Excellent, Michelle - welcome to the team!

[Tre]

I'm definitely interested in what we can do. It would be great to host something up here as well. I can meet wherever though...

Excellent, Gene. Your creative talents are among the best in the land and given your corporate-level marketing experience, I feel that this movement will definitely benefit from the insight and ideas you can provide.

Thanks, and welcome.

[Beenaround]

HAPPY 4th too!!

[GymRat]

Okay, so I'm perusing the site, checking out past threads and run across this one. Anything happening on this front? I sure hope so! I'm very interested in learning more if this hasn't died an untimely death.

[faithprincess]

You people are making my head swim :help: :headscrat with all of this information posted and quoted here. I am switching over from fitness to bodybuilding because I want a place to compeite and perform. In fitness the judges say I'm to hard, to cut and look like a bodybuilder, so I thought that I would give it a try. I'm in training now for my first show comming up in Pitts in May. But now my head is swimming in circels from what I'm reading here about womens bb going under. Is it all because of the supplment compaines? are they really in that much controll of the sport :confused:

[Maxt]

Congratulations Theresa. Enjoy your future. I am sure it may be successful.

[jasons805]

If more switch like you it will succeed.

[genex]

I wouldn't worry about it Theresa, just do what you love. Everything else if you can't control, why stress on it. Of course with more women like you competing I am sure interest will grow!

[K-Max]

So yeah, since the thread got bumped is anyone doing anything? As in a new federation or action or news wise?

[Harry The Hat]

WPI (Women's Physique International) is expanding to include the MPI (Master's Physique International? Men's Physique International?). Their first show is confirmed (February or March, I think), sponsors to be confirmed, but apparently the prize money will be impressive. De Melia might be starting a BBing organisation in Asia. Or Europe. Or something. Manion is cutting loose from the IFBB and starting his own NPC pro division. It's all happening. Or not, depending on your point of view and level of cynicism.

Personally, if I was the IFBB, the only one I'd be keeping my eye on is Manion. He has the numbers, the base, the organisation and the contacts. Having said that, if he does cut loose and is able to offer prize money as good or better than the IFBB, then there's not a lot the IFBB can do. If he can offer each new pro a real-life contract and a guaranteed income, then the IFBB won't have a new pro to speak of in the future - on the men's or the women's sides.

[Zennie]

WPI (Women's Physique International) is expanding to include the MPI (Master's Physique International? Men's Physique International?). Their first show is confirmed (February or March, I think), sponsors to be confirmed, but apparently the prize money will be impressive. De Melia might be starting a BBing organisation in Asia. Or Europe. Or something. Manion is cutting loose from the IFBB and starting his own NPC pro division. It's all happening. Or not, depending on your point of view and level of cynicism.

Personally, if I was the IFBB, the only one I'd be keeping my eye on is Manion. He has the numbers, the base, the organisation and the contacts. Having said that, if he does cut loose and is able to offer prize money as good or better than the IFBB, then there's not a lot the IFBB can do. If he can offer each new pro a real-life contract and a guaranteed income, then the IFBB won't have a new pro to speak of in the future - on the men's or the women's sides.

This is the list of contests promoted -- reported in the order of date, contest, location, and sponsor -- from their website. The link is here:
http://www.officialwpi.com/contest-promotions.bv


01-28-06 International Trainer's Seminar Daugavpilis, Latvia WFF International

02-25-06 Lithuania Power Championship Open Palanga, Lithuania Lithuania National Body Building Association

04-01-06 WFF Europe Junior Senior and Couples Championship Riga, Latvia WFF International

05-06-06 Lithuania Championship Open Klaipeda, Lithuania WFF Lithuania

05-06-06 30th "Amber Prix" International Klaipeda, Lithuania WFF International

05-13-06 Latvia Championship Open Daugavpils, Latvia WFF Latvia

05-13-06 Russia Cup Open Under Discussion WFF International

05-20-06 WFF Europe Championship (20,000 USD) Jekaterinburg, Russia WFF International

06-03-06 Slovakia Championship Open Bratislava, Slovakia WFF Slovakia

07-01-06 European Championship Sapri, Italy IBFA-WFF International

07-02-06 "Universe" International Sapri, Italy IBFA-WFF International

11-10-06 Russia Championship Open Under discussion WFF Russia

11-10-06 Latvia Cup Open Daugavpils, Latvia WFF Latvia
11-17-06 "Lithuania Cup Open" Klaipeda, Lithuania WFF International

11-18-06 World Amateur Championship LykiaWorld, Turkey
WFF International

11-25-06 World Pro Championship (20,000 USD) Vilnius, Lithuania WFF International

12-02-06 WFF Pro "Universe" (20,000 USD) Moscow, Russia WFF International

12-16-06 Lithuania Power Cup Palanga, Lithuania Lithuania National Body Building Association

[KyleQuest]

the WPI can do whatever they wish... just keep it out of the states! They certainly aren't helping...