yaxeni's win

[Harry The Hat]

As I said in another thread, I strongly believe that whoever wins the Ms. O sets the tone and standard for the coming year. My question is: what message does Yaxeni's win send out?

She always struck me as the woman who most successfully combined size and shape. Is that balance the revised ideal? Michelle was saying that this time Yax was not as hard as Iris or Dayana. Is a slightly softer contest physique part of that ideal?

Put it another way. If this were to be the start of a Yaxeni Era, what would its defining characteristics be?

[Maxt]

I think the message is why did she not win as far back as three years ago. It is about time. Congratulations Yaxeni. You deserved it.

[Tin Nuts]

Yes! Yaxeni was my pic to win going in. Congratulations Ms. Oriquen! :D :D :D

If this is the beginning of a Yaxeni era, I say good! It would be defined by size, shape and grace. Yax can harden up with the best of them when she chooses to. I saw this first hand last year at the O. I think her condition this year was a well calculated/anticipated adjustment.

And my USC beat Notre Dame this afternoon. 28 straight! Stellar day!

There's no comin' back from a Yax attack!

i need to go calm down a little now.

[ibarramedia]

I'm very happy with Yaxeni's win. It is about time. I may be a minority in my opinion here about having different Olympia winners. Personally i think it will be better for the sport if different people win instead of having all Ms. O winners build a streak. Next year I would like to see Betty Pariso win, the year after that Jitka, then Amanda, Elena, Sarah, Heather Policky,Heather Lee, etc. Kinda like NFL parity. Just my humble opinion.

[onecoolcat]

long time listener, 2nd time caller--

I agree with most posting that Yaxeni's win tonight was a microscopic step
in the right direction, but to view this anything more than microscopic, in my opinion, is delusional.

Let's be real people: FBB has been sent to the intensive care unit, she is unresponsive and in a coma, and they're trying to decide whether to resuscitate.

Yaxeni's size and muscularity is still WAAAAYYYY outside the realm of what will save fbb. It might appeal to the microscopic niche that occupies this website, but it has no appeal nationally, and likely never will. Her upper body
would be the envy of most men--minus the obvious.

In choosing an "enhanced light" version of fbb, at least we prevented the docs from pulling the plug (which, btw, I think was at greater risk tonight than any other night in fbb). But, in my opinion, the patient stays comatose. I think it sends the wrong message: we accept/promote "judicious" use of steroids in women's athletics. yeah, that's the message we want to send.

IMO--something drastic must be done, along the lines of mandatory Olympic style testing of all winners. As drastic as that sounds, the patient's condition calls for drastic action.

if fbb is to continue there it must a) expand the base of women interested--i.e., present a look that is desirable to a larger subset of women; and b) expand the base of the males interested. I don't know if either was achieved with Yaxeni's win tonight.

I know I'm in the minority with my hardcore natty stance, but that's OK.
Might piss a few folks off, but that's OK too. You'll thank me for it in the morning :)

adios,
--the cat

[Maxt]

Adios Cat. I'll stick with female bodybuilding. As long as the ladies are willing to do it, I'll probably be enjoying it.

[Harry The Hat]

I think you have to search around and look at a few of the shots from the contest itself. Some of the women are definitely smaller and most of them are less hard. Notice also that Jitka surprised a few people by placing as high as fourth.

You could say that Yaxeni doesn’t represent a radically new ideal. In one sense, she does though. Previous to this, Iris was considered unbeatable, because she was strong in all body parts and all body parts were in balance. That’s pretty much traditional (male) bodybuilding judging criteria. And on those criteria she was difficult to beat. The problem is those criteria will always reward the biggest mature physique.

For me, Yaxeni’s win represents The Return Of The Aesthetic. She has good size but has always married this with pleasing lines and a flow to her physique. Now we’re seeing that fully and equally developed muscle has to create a harmonious whole. Iris took second, but if she’d have come in with last year’s physique, she would have placed lower. I was also pleased to see both Dayana and Jitka in the mix, as it shows that the lightweights can successfully hold their own with the bigger women. Yaxeni’s win is big news. More specifically, Iris’s failure to win is big news.

I understand why Cat thinks that the development of pro physiques has created a decline, but it’s only true if (a) like Bob Chicerillo, you see a direct causal relationship between physique size and crowd size and (b) you actually believe a decline is taking place.

The truth is, the decline in attendances started during Lenda’s reign. Yes, during the time that (to quote Bob C himself) ‘lovely feminine woman’ was ruling FBBing. There is no causal relationship between physique sizes and crowd sizes. So what’s the corollary between? It’s between the amount of magazine exposure and show attendance. Rachel and Cory were on every cover in sight. Lenda got none. The last time I saw Lenda in print, she had a half page Ask Lenda column in Flex. It was like seeing Faberge selling his jewel-encrusted eggs at a market stall.

And – whisper it if you dare – show attendances actually aren’t on their way down any more. In fact, recently there’s been decent year-on-year growth. You can put this down to both the quality of physiques coming in and the FBB-ing websites replacing traditional print media to give a profile to the sport and the athletes.

Things are on the up. Welcome to the Renaissance.

[Maxt]

I think you have to search around and look at a few of the shots from the contest itself. Some of the women are definitely smaller and most of them are less hard. Notice also that Jitka surprised a few people by placing as high as fourth.
Why should that have been such a surprise when she won two weeks ago?

[onecoolcat]

Hey--cat again.

first, don't get me wrong--you will not find a more ardent supporter of bb, both male and female, than I--my main issue with pro-fbb, and even high level (USA's, North American, Nationals) amateur is somewhere in the late 80's roids took over and with them came the beginning of the demise.

To me it is very sad to see young fbb's realize early on that they can only win by heavy roidage. I won't name names, but we all know who were talking about here. Girls who go from "nice lines" to 25-30lbs of muscle in one year. Their faces also change--wider jaw, more prominent cheek bones, maybe a bit of receding hairline...

some argue, and unfort. I think it's true, that people go to see mens pro-bb
to see the biggest, baddest, most massive physiques and they don't give a **** how they came to the physique--sort of like when McGwire and Sosa were hitting their daily homeruns--sure was fun, wasn't it. Hundreds of thousands of guys will buy up FLEX and MuscleMag reading the article of how
Ronnie got his 23" biceps and think "yeah, if I do that workout, I too will have
23" guns>>I just need to buy the same supps as Ronnie--and they do buy millions of dollars worth of supps (billions?)--the money keeps rolling in, and sponsors for pro-male bb keep the steroid flowing, etc.

Fair or unfair, I don't think the same rules apply to fbb, however. FBB achieved it's peak in the 80's when the women such as Cory, Anja Langer, Anja Schreiner, Penny Price, Kathy Unger, etc. were competing. These women had very well developed physiques, but still retained a female shape AND had aesthetic
appeal to MEN and WOMEN. Men thought they were attractive (at least a decent subset--hence mags had them on the cover--my fav cover of all time being the Muscular Development with Anja Schreiner dressed as Santa, but I digress...[anyone remember that one!--Merry Christmas indeed]). The post-Cory era, IMO was the beginning of the end. IMO Lenda's physique--and I'll grant you this is open to debate-- crossed over into "unattainable by any reasonable natural means"--certainly you would have to concur that the "2nd coming" of Lenda (4 year ago Olympia) crossed that line.

In the 90's the downward spiral picked up speed--no more covers, in fact, fbb was reduced to footnotes in Flex, Muscle and Fitness, Muscular Dev., Ironman, etc. I don't think you can blame Bob Chicerillo for this massive "blackout" of fbb. Simply put--the "I really like the roided-out hypermuscular fbb hard look" crowd isn't big enough to make it worth
their while--it's simply market-driven. Supps support the mags, if those buying the mags aren't interested in roided out fbb, then, instead we'll
put in pictorials featuring "bikini girls" that most guys DO like. (I would much prefer they have figure athletes, natural fbb's, etc. but I digress again).

IMO Cory is the female equivalent of Arnold. She has gone on record (see interview in Ironman about 7 months ago) that fbb has lost all semblance of
aesthetic appeal. Rumor has it that even Lenda has "signed off".
(I don't expect an equally courageous commentary coming from the governor of California regarding men's bb, though--sad but true).

Now, the only women that I see in that Olympia lineup that DON'T look
unattainable by any reasonable natural means are Tonie Norman and Jitka.

EVERYONE else, IMO, including Yaxeni, represent something beyond what will ever be appealing to anyone but the "I really like the roided-out hypermuscular fbb hard look" crowd.

Jitka's recent win, to me, was the BEST news in pro-FBB since Valentina Chepiga won a few (5?) years back. Jitka is definitely "old school".

Ok, enough of my ramblings.

adios and buenas noches, -the cat

[Andrea Gahan]

I"m going to stay out of the "appearant abusers of anabolics" argument, because it goes nowhere. I'm also going to stay out of the "attainable to the masses," wolf cry because that's not what I want to focus on. I"m up for debate any day of the week, especially on issues of women and drug use. Hell- I've written enough articles about women and gear to take on the best of you, but frankly I've grown tired of the same senseless bull**** on all the boards. It's always the same banter; that certain women "look" like they take drugs, and other women "appear that they don't." Doesn't mean jack squat, and guess what? The masses are not drawn to "either" camp......so it becomes a dead issue.

My concern is on the "fair weather" attitude of many posters on this site, especially when it comes to Yaxeni's win.

If we look at Yaxeni's physique, there's much to comment on. She's an attractive female bodybuilder, but she's also a BIG female bodybuilder. For those who kept shouting that "smaller fbb will save the day," guess you all lost this one, eh? The NPC may have chosen the "smaller, less developed, less symmetrical" fbb to win the big shows, but when it came down to it, (with the biggest show of the year for Pro Women,) you all lost the war........If any of you are lost in translation, I"ll elaborate: when it mattered at "the big dance," it came down to size, shape and symmetry. That is what won. And, justifiably so.

Structure was present, but it wasn't THE deciding factor. Yax has good structure, but so does Jitka. But, Jitka didn't win. So, for all those who thought she should have, guess you all will have to spend a few more years develping physiques that are slighlty more developed, physques that can actally STAND on a pro stage? The Bodybuilder/Figure Mirror broke, and thankfully so. There should NEVER be any mistaking who's the figure athlete and the FBB- and that is not because one will "attract" the masses and one doesn't. It should be clear for the fans and the athletes themselves, because they are different sports. Yax is a bodybuilder all damn day. Finally, a woman who looks like she lifts weights, looks like she belongs on a pro stage, and a woman who looks like she's a woman! Yes, people , it IS possible for size, structure, shape and female presentation to all exist in the same package. Structure does not have to exist independently of the other factors!

I"m sick to death of hearing that smaller, well structured women will save the day. They ain't saving ****- except for possibly their own egos when they realize they can't stand on a Pro Stage, with the BEST, and be judged fairly. The women at the top are the elite athletes. They are the "model" the rest of us are chasing. If you can't model yourself after them, or "choose" not to model yourself after them, then you won't meet the criteria to be truly competitive in this sport. The model should NOT change because certain people can't reach that standand.

Lowering standards truly lowers the quality of the athletes. When people attend the Pro Shows , they are paying to see the elite; not some phsyique that they can see in "any" gym acrossed the nation. The Wow! factor should be present. These Pro Women represent the best that the sport has to offer. That is what the fans want to see.......Not the mediocre athlete who's been chosen to "recruit" new women into the sport by trying to appeal to the mainstream. Or, allowing sub par athletes on stage displaying phsyiques that the masses deem "attainable." Where's the elitism in that? Where's the novelty of the Pro Status, with average bodies on stage? The appeal of professional status drops consiberably when we look at athletes that can't make the cut. And, the crowd is not stupid. They can tell when certain athletes can't hang with the big dogs.

Thankfully, Yaxeni's placing was a good call. It gives creedence to the concept that bodybuilding hasn't ventured far from its roots. It may have taken a detour, with the 20% ruling, but it's back on track, with a justified placing. Furthermore, there were many placers, behind Yaxeni that also looked good, and they all looked like women. I was pleased with what I saw.

Yax's win gives those of us who subscribe to bodybuilding as a sport that exists on the periphery, hope that there is a sense of fair play at the Pro Level.

Now, we need it to filter down to the NPC.


Andrea Gahan

[Tre]

As usual, great post, Andrea.

But one thing that not a lot of people are talking about (yet) is how much more like bodybuilders the top figure women are looking these days.

Iris did downsize about 20-21% this year and it's possible that may have cost her the title.

That said, I'm so happy that Yaxeni stayed true to her passion. She was a *little* bit smaller and softer, and the result was beautiful. Her physique has always been awesome - it's great to finally see her receiving the highest recognition she so richly deserves.

[onecoolcat]

Glad your happy with the outcome, Ms. Gahan. But,regardless of what you believe, Ms. Gahan, the realities are as follows:

1) The Ms. Olympia, the "the biggest show of the year for Pro Women,) you all lost the war........" was held as a sideshow to a fitness expo. Fairly well attended for a fitness expo, but a sideshow nonetheless.

2) Trying to find coverage of the "the biggest show of the year for Pro Women,) you all lost the war........" represented quite a challenge for those
on the internet. (see several running threads). Major sites, regardless of your opinion of them (eg., bb.com) didn't cover it at all hard to believe for the "the biggest show of the year for Pro Women,) you all lost the war........"
I've been around longer than you have and THAT's a first for the Ms. Olympia--a media blackout. Dark days indeed.

Apparently "when it mattered at "the big dance," -- really didn't matter much at all...

3) Have you heard what the purses were for top placers? $200 game passes
at Harrah's?

a few more comments on your comments--
you said:

"If we look at Yaxeni's physique, there's much to comment on. She's an attractive female bodybuilder, but she's also a BIG female bodybuilder. For those who kept shouting that "smaller fbb will save the day," guess you all lost this one, eh?"

By your arguments, not sure what her "attractiveness" has to do with anything, after all you believe its all about "size, shape and symmetry. That is what won. And, justifiably so."

my favorite is this:

I"m sick to death of hearing that smaller, well structured women will save the day. They ain't saving ****- except for possibly their own egos when they realize they can't stand on a Pro Stage, with the BEST, and be judged fairly. The women at the top are the elite athletes. They are the "model" the rest of us are chasing. If you can't model yourself after them, or "choose" not to model yourself after them, then you won't meet the criteria to be truly competitive in this sport. The model should NOT change because certain people can't reach that standand.

This is the most circular logic I've ever read anywhere. First, the standard shifts contest by contest. Contest to contest the women don't know how to come in BECAUSE THERE IS NO STANDARD. So the idea that any "standard" exists is absurd.

Second, the word "model" implies an outcome that is, one would think, admirable and worthy of pursuit. I would argue that your pursuit of an androgenized "model" has left you and the Ms. Olympia contest (aka "the biggest show of the year for Pro Women,) you all lost the war........" ) as a fitness expo sideshow. Congrats! Let's all ardently continue to pursue this very productive and successful "model". Yep! It's working out real well, isn't it.

I admire the up coming "smaller" women who have the guts to say "to hell with your androgenized model". They are the future.

Haven't you noticed (???) the mass exodus of fbb's into figure--the highly desired "model" really pulls 'em in. Many of the top up and comers--young fbb's have wised up "it ain't worth the price" of losing their feminity.

I stand by my original argument--androgenizing steroids is killing fbb.

the tiny nucleus of hardcore fans, schoes, and fetishests exists--but if this "sport" is to
ever to achieve any reasonable credibility again, radical changes will have to take place (among them testing). Don't confuse an exhibition hall with 1500 fans (that's a generous estimate) as a "success". More people recently attended the Barry Manilow concert when it came to town.

So in addition to your being happy about Yaxeni winning you can also be happy about "Yax's win gives those of us who subscribe to bodybuilding as a sport that exists on the periphery, hope that there is a sense of fair play at the Pro Level"--yep, you and your ilk will ensure that it stays waaaaaaaayyy at the periphery--like a sideshow at a fitness expo.

So you can keep your macho "damn the torpedoes" attitude, but pro fbb is in shambles. To deny that is delusional. IMO you need to ask why and be honest. But I don't think you will.

A schism is developing and it is inevitable. That's good for fbb in my mind. Wish the men would so wisen up.


stop the bleeding...

-the cat

[Tre]

So, Cat, are you arguing that the so-called "natural" competitors cannot co-exist with the "other than natural" or "enhanced" competitors?

[onecoolcat]

Sure, they can co-exist. I'm just saying the "rules" of male pro-bb, i.e.,the public seems to be willing to turn a blind eye to the massive drug use/abuse b/c large numbers of males are willing to buy up magazines, supps., etc. does not apply to fbb.

People like Ms. Gahan will say "that's not fair, why should men be allowed to
take it to the freaky roided-out limit and not women--my answer: they can--just don't expect any reasonable subset of the population (male or female) to
show any interest.

I believe the 15 years of heavy-duty roids may have finished off pro-fbb as we know it--

quite frankly, I really get pissed when I see scores (through the years) of women who previously were attractive, feminine women permanently turned into androygnous freaks. To me this is tragic. I'm not going to name names--out of respect for their feelings, but you know who I'm talking about--there are dozens and dozens of them. All in the name of the "sport".

The "damn the torpedoes" crowd will say: "well, that's the choice they made, etc". Many of these women are told that they MUST use or lose. Sure they still have a choice, but when your trainer (usually a male) tells you this, and you're highly impressionable, guess what--you use. "just take a little", it won't leave any permanent changes. As if they really knew what was going to happen individual to individual.

Tre--you know well there are dozens of genetically gifted women who started in bb and, often achieved significant success (lower ranking in national contests, etc.--or even winning lesser nat. amateur contests) that bagged fbb b/c they know the "MODEL" (as Ms. Gahan calls it) that awaits them in pro fbb. If they want to advance they have to become the androgenized "model". They are saying "screw that"--instead, they turn to figure, and in my opinion, never realize their potential. Examples include Amanda Savell, Lisa Bickels, Summer Brooks among others. All with great BODYBUILDING potential. All "lost" to figure for the SAME REASON> (I'm not dissing figure here, just talking about the devolution of pro-fbb; lot of respect for figure competitors).

If you talk to these "forced-into-figure" many will tell you they are "bodybuilders at heart", i.e., they would like to push their physique size and shape wise to it's natural potential but THEY AIN'T WILLING TO LOSE THEIR FEMALENESS OVER IT.
When you ask them why don't you go into natural bb, they tell you there's no significant recogition in that circuit. So it's either IFBB/NPC bb or figure. IN MY OPINION THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ONLY CHOICES.

What I think ought to be done is mandatory testing at all major female amateur and pro events. If this is done, you will see some very highly developed female physiques but you won't see the likes of what you've seen in the past 15 years of pro-fbb. It would be awesome. You will see beautiful physiques like Nancy Andrews, Johanna Dejager, Maria Mikola, etc.

As I've said b/f, the schism is clear. You see it on the boards--the freaky-as-I-wanna-be crowd is clearly dying off. I see this as an inevitability of progress and evolution of the sport.

adios, the cat.

[fbbfan111]

I don't agree with Cat's dire predictions for the near future, but overall, he's right--pro-fbb is risking extinction. Maybe a year or three down the road if nothing changes.

I think
testing is a good idea. Not that people won't cheat--they will--but only test the winners.

He's also right that many of the "forced into figure" women will come back to bb. Hope so. Those women he mentioned (Lisa Bickels amanda savill ) have great potential --especially Savill. (they're both hotties too :)