why do they make it so hard for a fbb to turn pro

[d-pump]

I am a huge fan of male and female bodybuilding and have respect for the fit/fig girls, but do not understand something.

There are so many a- class NPC girls that deserve to turn pro (heather p, amanda, elena and sooo many others) why is it that there are only a few chances- usa's (overall), nationals, world amatuers, where there are way more chances for fig girls to turn pro? am i missing something.

There have been many girls in the past that have quit trying that could have been excellent ambassadors for the sport, while we see the same faces over and over in the pro shows. I thought they let so many girls qualify for ifbb fig at first to propel the sport of fig, but it still seems to be happening. some of the amatuer fig girls promoted to pro are not close to being as outstanding in there respective division as the female bb-ers.

I know that there aren't that many pro shows for the girls, but this would lead to bigger and better line-ups. I know that a lot of the top npc chicks would look great ifbb, lets face it- they do have a fresher look than some of the ifbb women.

am i off- what do you think?

[bigjoeyc]

I am a huge fan of male and female bodybuilding and have respect for the fit/fig girls, but do not understand something.

There are so many a- class NPC girls that deserve to turn pro (heather p, amanda, elena and sooo many others) why is it that there are only a few chances- usa's (overall), nationals, world amatuers, where there are way more chances for fig girls to turn pro? am i missing something.

There have been many girls in the past that have quit trying that could have been excellent ambassadors for the sport, while we see the same faces over and over in the pro shows. I thought they let so many girls qualify for ifbb fig at first to propel the sport of fig, but it still seems to be happening. some of the amatuer fig girls promoted to pro are not close to being as outstanding in there respective division as the female bb-ers.

I know that there aren't that many pro shows for the girls, but this would lead to bigger and better line-ups. I know that a lot of the top npc chicks would look great ifbb, lets face it- they do have a fresher look than some of the ifbb women.

am i off- what do you think?

Maybe it has to do with sponsorship, if I am ever rich I will dump millions into the sport. ;)

[Tin Nuts]

Hi d-pump, you're not off at all on this from my perspective. But since I'm a male bb'r my slant on things may not be what you want as I have no direct experience at being a girl in this world (ha!) .... I think some of the fbb's who post here using their real name may be a little hesitant to post on a subject like this for whatever reason, but I may be wrong. Their thoughts would be interesting to me anyway. Anybody?

[Beenaround]

What it truly boils down to the higher, higher ups(weiders, now this David Pecker) don't really care for the gals but had to promote(Weider) fbbers because they wanted sooooo desperately to include bodybuilding in the Olympics.(to be politically correct you have to have both men and women athletes represented for each sport). So through the yrs we have been tolarated, but not really wanted, hence we'll show the OIC that we're supporting the women, but to the nil degree.
Anyway as we all know this will never happen, but since the women are part of the sport, they kept us.
Now, if they look at it to make more $$$$$, they should have more women turn pro, as we would have fans, friends.... come watch which means more money?? This has been repeatedly said numerous times, but hey Joey you got the right idea, if we could come up with one wealthy individual who truly loves the sport in all reality start a whole new federation(also for men, to honestly make it work) that would be tre light at the end of the tunnel.
Michelle Ivers-Brent Competitor since 1985. Amen!!!! :o :)

[Tre]

For the better part of the past decade, what Michelle stated is spot-on with part of the reality. The part that her statement doesn't include is that the NPC *always* loved women's bodybuilding for two reasons - 1) president Jim Manion is a huge bodybuilding fan and 2) the women bodybuilders represent a significant percentage of the NPC's annual revenue.

The IFBB leadership always seemed at odds with that, however, and seemed to do whatever they could to limit the opportunities for the bodybuilding women as often as they could. But they couldn't eliminate pro women's bodybuilding, though. It wasn't so much that they wanted a gender-friendly Olympic sport, but rather the fact that if the IFBB wanted to retain the NPC as its amateur feeder organization, there *had* to be someplace for the women to go once they turned pro in the NPC. If not, then the NPC would potentially lose a *lot* of money and Mr. Manion wasn't about to let that happen.

Now that he is the chairman of the IFBB's pro division, the potential for improvement is there, but his being in that position virtually guarantees that there will always be a place for the women in the pro division of the IFBB.

The new problem is the number of women, who - for whatever reason - do not wish to enter the available shows. What's the point in having 8-10 shows for them to do if only 11-13 competitors will show up for the contests which are taking place?

The number of pro cards available for women bodybuilders in the U.S. has doubled in the last few years, and around the globe, there are a lot less barriers to turning pro than ever before. In the past year, Klaudia Larson and Marika Johansson have turned pro from Sweden. Sissel Lyngvaer, a Norwegian, won the Nutrition Outlet Grand Prix this past weekend and is the newest IFBB pro.

But let's talk about that for a moment. This contest was open to all IFBB competitors in Europe, yet with a pro card on the line, no one from Finland, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc. competed. There were 5 women in the show, 1 of whom came from Canada to compete.

I know no less than a dozen American women who would've killed for that card (Sissel was great, though, so don't think for a moment that it would've been 'easy' for an American woman to win this contest), but they were not eligible to participate.

I see that as a flaw in the system. A pro qualifier should be a pro qualifier. I totally understand the value of keeping the Nationals restricted to U.S.ians and the Canadians restricted to Canadians, but if there's an open GRAND PRIX event, why not have it completely open to everyone? I would love to see an Andrea Trent, for example, competing for an IFBB pro card deep in the heart of Scandinavia.

We need a huge influx of new pros. The old guard are great women, but they can't keep sustaining the contests forever all by themselves.

[genex]

Yeah I think the main issue a lot of folks have is the quantity of pro cards available in figure vs. bodybuilding. The current number of active competitors in fBB seems lower than in figure although they are still seeding the ranks of the pros in figure with quite a lot of american qualifiers.

gene

[Beenaround]

Tre: Question?? Angie Salvagno was approached by a photog from Europe,Joe Mesa was talking to him for Angie in regards to doing the Swedish Championships just held last month. Do you kniw that promotors name?? Joe told me, It seems he had invited Angie and she bowed out this yr but may be doing it next yr. If this is true, I would like to e-mail this promotor, send a couple of pics and go from there. I'm sure you have the skinny on this.

[Beenaround]

or Gene, do you have a clue????

[Tre]

Hey Michelle,

In regards to the Nutrition Outlet Grand Prix (NOGP), we learned about 6-8 weeks before the contest that if an American or Canadian won the show, she would *not* be eligible for IFBB pro status. Pro card eligibility, regardless of citizenship, was to have been the appeal of the show to the international competitors. We were all disappointed that it fell through, but the promoters are already working hard to see about making the show a 'true' Open in 2006. The Scandinavian women would love to go head-to-head against some of the mighty Americans. :)

If they can get that approval, it would be great to see Angie compete over there next year. My next order of business is getting them to switch the date so that it does not conflict with the Emerald Cup.

International open competitions would really take the sport to the next level, in my opinion.

[Beenaround]

Thanks Tre, for the info, knew you would know ;) Are you coing up for thre Contra this yr???

[Tre]

Thanks Tre, for the info, knew you would know ;)
:) I think this is a situation that's worth watching over the next year. The IFBB has a chance to do something big that won't require any work at all on their part. The European promoters are asking for this - the federation just needs to give the permission for it.
Are you coing up for the Contra this yr???
Nah, not after what happened last year. I won't waste my money again, unless there's a dramatic change in policy and the treatment of fans.

[genex]

I think the photographer you may be thinking of is Roland Wallinger? Not sure, but I don't know if he was directly related to the NOGP or not. Does that ring a bell?

gene

[Beenaround]

yes, that's who it was, what's his co. name he goes by??? Joe had been talking to Helle
Nielsen, with Angie at the USA last yr and that's when he told he about the Euro route.

[genex]

Oops it's Roland Walliser (http://www.physiquephotographer.com/RolandWalliser.html)

and his site is:
http://www.physiquephotographer.com/

[Tre]

No, Roland wasn't involved with or in attendance at the NOGP. I wish he'd been there and had brought some of those awesome German competitors with him as well. Maybe next year.

Either way, having open competitions at the amateur level for women from all countries is a great idea. :)

[mark000]

The last few years they have awarded a LOT more pro cards for figure and fitness, to allow those younger categories to fill out the pro ranks. That has been accomplished by now, and there is a HUGE backlog of pro-level FBBs in the LHW class especially. Debbie Bramwell and Heather Lee not in the top 5 at the Nationals??? But there were at least 15 women in that class who were "top 5" quality. I'd like to see compensatory extra pro cards for LHWs for the next few years, by the same logic.

[Tre]

there is a HUGE backlog of pro-level FBBs in the LHW class especially. Debbie Bramwell and Heather Lee not in the top 5 at the Nationals??? But there were at least 15 women in that class who were "top 5" quality. I'd like to see compensatory extra pro cards for LHWs for the next few years, by the same logic.

Start an online petition, get the supporters to sign on, and then present your petition and a written letter to the NPC. I'm not saying you'll achieve the desired result, but given the current lack of participation at the pro level, I think your idea is certainly worth pursuing.

[mark000]

On lack of FBB pro participation - there is a vicious circle involving lack of money and loss of motivation. Also, once women have reached the goal of a pro card which has motivated them for many years, there in some cases is a letdown. This may be the case for many women who realize they don't quite have the genetics or the single mindedness to be Ms O. The prestige of the attainable goal of pro status can be sufficient to motivate years of amateur competition. But without adequate prize funds, and without a realistic chance to be number one, many may feel that the sacrifice of dieting etc is not worth it.

[Beenaround]

Bingo Mark000

[Siss]

Sorry for my language, but hopefully you understand what I wright.
I, Sissel Lyngvaer did not automaticly got a procard after the competition i Sweden. Everyone seems to think so...
But I am Norwegian, living and compeding in Sweden. And that is a problem..
The Swedish federation off ifbb,SKKF, do not think I am their responsibility because I am born Norwegian. Bla, bla,bla...
So I am still an amateur.
Better to be a good amateur, than a bad pro.

Regards Siss

[Zennie]

What it truly boils down to the higher, higher ups(weiders, now this David Pecker) don't really care for the gals but had to promote(Weider) fbbers because they wanted sooooo desperately to include bodybuilding in the Olympics.(to be politically correct you have to have both men and women athletes represented for each sport). So through the yrs we have been tolarated, but not really wanted, hence we'll show the OIC that we're supporting the women, but to the nil degree.
Anyway as we all know this will never happen, but since the women are part of the sport, they kept us.
Now, if they look at it to make more $$$$$, they should have more women turn pro, as we would have fans, friends.... come watch which means more money?? This has been repeatedly said numerous times, but hey Joey you got the right idea, if we could come up with one wealthy individual who truly loves the sport in all reality start a whole new federation(also for men, to honestly make it work) that would be tre light at the end of the tunnel.
Michelle Ivers-Brent Competitor since 1985. Amen!!!! :o :)

Hi. I' am of the view that it doesn't take one wealthy individual, but a banning together of the websites and member revenues of the current FBB's.

But as I think about it, why not approach Oprah Winfrey about starting a women-only sanctioning body, and with the business model that is unfolding here. I'm not kidding. Her company HARPO Productions just may look at a well-presented proposal twice, especially if the Internet and TV traffic connection is explained. Plus, Oprah is known for her interest in projects that help women. This is one of them. It's empowerment.

On the note of websites, the site for the upcoming Las Vegas show is --- with due respect to the promoters, not good at all. Ok..it's terrible. Why? Well, if I'm a casual fan, how can I know who's going to be there? They don't work to draw the women, and the application deadline is July 8th. If they had prize money to draw the top FBB's, they would be able to have all of them "locked up" by now, and can promote them on the site, with clicks to their websites, and back. ...and more.

Plus, there's no promoting of Las Vegas to make me want to attend this. There's no links to special travel deals they set up. There's no nothing. Geez....and this is for a pro card?

A new Fbb-only company would not make such business errors.

[fbbhubby]

Hmmm, an organization of fbb set up by the Intenet people. So fbb may not be able to sell powders, but they have proven that they can sell website memberships.......both for themselves and the paysites with multiple models.

I believe it could work economically, but is this the direction that's best for female bodybuilding as a sport? Or just to make money? Or maybe the only market there will ever be for large, muscular female bodybuilders are the current and future fans of the various websites that exist, which are mostly men.

[Amanda Dunbar]

............... Or maybe the only market there will ever be for large, muscular female bodybuilders are the current and future fans of the various websites that exist, which are mostly men.


this will never change.

[Maxt]

It has always been a mystery to me why they do not open up more spots for pro womens bodybuilding.

[Tre]

Sorry for my language, but hopefully you understand what I wright.
I, Sissel Lyngvaer did not automaticly got a procard after the competition i Sweden. Everyone seems to think so...
But I am Norwegian, living and compeding in Sweden. And that is a problem..
The Swedish federation off ifbb,SKKF, do not think I am their responsibility because I am born Norwegian. Bla, bla,bla...
So I am still an amateur.
Better to be a good amateur, than a bad pro.

Regards Siss

Hi Sissel, so good to hear from you, but this is terrible news! :mad:

Why would they promote this show as an "IFBB PRO qualifier" and then announce at the time of the event that you would win your pro card only to change this decision later because you are not Swedish?! I wish I had known about this sooner, because I would've raised hell.

UN-FAIR.

Submit your application for IFBB pro status via the Norwegian federation. If they won't endorse it, send it to me and you can become an FBBF pro.

[Tre]

Hmmm, an organization of fbb set up by the Intenet people. So fbb may not be able to sell powders, but they have proven that they can sell website memberships.......both for themselves and the paysites with multiple models.

I believe it could work economically, but is this the direction that's best for female bodybuilding as a sport? Or just to make money? Or maybe the only market there will ever be for large, muscular female bodybuilders are the current and future fans of the various websites that exist, which are mostly men.

You've delicately touched on some very important issues there and someone has to be willing to step up and make some hard decisions for which he/she is willing to be held accountable.

I refer to it as the 'schmoeconomy', and it's rather large. I have a fair idea of about how much money is generated by all the sites combined - from the megasites on down to the individual member sites - and there's a lot more money in women's bodybuilding than people realize.

My best-sellers are women like Angie Salvagno, Debbie Leung, Mindi O'Brien and Trina Gillis, to name a few, but my customer base represents just a small sample of the FBB fan population. Other producers out there have said they have more commercial success with the larger, more hardcore women, while still others have found their niche, in the smaller-n-softer fitness-type market.

I believe there's a 'market' for almost every look that exists within the sport, but for obvious reasons, some of those looks will have more public appeal than others.

We benefit from use of the online media because of the low production costs and the ability to reach a wide audience very quickly. The world is moving more and more in the online direction, so women's bodybuilding has a chance to seriously carve its place in history with this new venture.

I'm going to put all my recent rants/mini-essays into a single location shortly, but it's important to understand a simple truism which is this - the IFBB isn't interested in promoting any individual female stars. It doesn't matter whether you're Jenny Lynn or Iris Kyle, the IFBB just isn't doing it. They haven't done it for the better part of 20 years, so don't expect them to change now. There are reasons for this, but the most important thing is for the competitors to take note of it.

Things that make ya go hmm...

What has to happen is that the women who do this AND who really love bodybuilding have to communicate with one another to decide what their future will hold as opposed to merely being content to let the IFBB decide it for them.

As I stated previously in this forum, my personal interest is in those women who'd like a shot at making history.

[fbbhubby]

I agree that the number of men willing to pay for pictures/video of muscular women is large....and with more exposure for the women, the market could be larger still. But the websites benefit from contests no matter who is in charge....just as long as contests are held and photos/videos can be shot. (Will schomotagraphers get press passes and the print folks have to buy their own tickets?? :D ) I guess what I'm saying is that since the internet people benefit financially from fbb contests, funding an organization is great. But I wouldn't like the policy decisions to be made by them. I sure would like the women to run it.

For contest coverage and photo layouts, print is antiquated. You can also promote a contest better, provide post-contest coverage, and broadcast the event using the internet. These are major advantages over the current situation.

The two problem areas are the judging criteria and politics. If you can have a set judging standard and the judges actually score the women according to set guidelines, you fix a major problem the NPC/IFBB has. Second, the judges have to be impartial. And because of all the personal networks that people have in place, it's hard to find judges that don't have a client in the lineup or have a friend's client in the lineup. Whether or not that's actually a factor in judging, it's the perception that there is a problem which makes it real. Also, hopefully you can make sure that the judges are women, which leaves out the schmoetographers :) That might be possible if you ask female pros who are really in retirement or semi-retirement to judge (i.e. Beth Roberts and other mid-level pros who haven't competed in a while). Please don't let photographers act as judges.......too many conflicts of interest.

If you can get committments for over 12 grand in 2 days for the venue, do you think there's another 20 grand out there for prize money?? With that kind of money, you'll get some decent pros involved. And a Pro-Am event you mentioned has potential.....with some pros having to prove themselves all over again against top amateurs!!

[Tre]

Agreed on almost every point you've raised. By the numbers:

1) As I look around, I can assure you that no one on this side of the business has any interest in running an organization. If there are contests, they'll surely show up, but I hope they'll be inclined to contribute more than just their presence. There are some companies out there - FTV, WPW, DtV, to name a few - who have sponsored events in the past, so I hope they'd continue in the future.

1b) *I* want to see an oganization for women being run by women, but can accept that they may wind up with men in some key positions. I'm only speaking for myself here, as I don't think there's a real consensus opinion either way on this one.

2) You're 100% correct about the ineffectiveness of the print media when it comes to covering women's bodybuilding & fitness. Think of all the thousands of competitors who were never featured in any magazine prior to the arrival of the internet. Now, *every* competitor can be featured somewhere. All of us here right now demonstrate the potential power of the internet for bringing together all these great ideas into something that can work.

3) I'd like to see each person scored individually onstage before being compared to anyone else and although that's my recommendation, the group can decide whatever it wants. And of course, they'll have the flexibility to change and to make adjustments as they see fit. I've never felt it was that hard to eliminate all the conflicts of interest in the current system. If you want something to reach the status of "sport", then those conflicts have to be removed. As stated, I'm offering to put on one event, and at that show, there will be no professional relationships between the competitors and any of the judges.

3b) I'm not convinced that 100% of the judges *must* be women, but it's my opinion that a majority should be. We'll let the group decide that, but I hope they'll understand the value of having women judging other women.

The photographers (with the exception of 1 or 2) have no interest in judging either. These guys want to take their stage pictures and do their shoots without having any other hassles -such as judging - getting between them and their bottom line. I can't blame them a bit and there are lots of days when I wish I could get to that point myself.

4) There's probably more sponsorship money out there to fund some prizes, but there are several reasons for leaving cash prizes out of the discussion for right now. One of those is that it leaves open the possibility for the IFBB to make the choice to get its act together and to present the women bodybuilders under its umbrella with something they can live with. I'll actually talk a little more about this later, but you're right, there could potentially be some prize money available and I am intrigued by the pro-am format.

---

The best part of all is that we're finally having a discussion about issues that matter and even though the participation has been small, people *are* speaking up about something that obviously means something to a lot of us.

Something good will come of this, I know.

[rpflex]

I hope I can shed some light on this for anyone interested...

I was contacted in February about participating in this contest by Carl-Markus Lokrantz who is a friend of the promoter...

The pro card is for IFBB! The Grand Prix has been around for some time and handed out pro card for the male winner. Last year I started working with Marika Johansson and I convinced the promoter (Roger Skoglund) also to
hand out pro card to the female winner and the winner was Klaudia Larsson
(Marika got her pro card later through wild card application). The contest
was good and the female BB was the most popular part (8 high quality
competitors from the Nordic Countries). We are now trying to make it even
better (my long term goal is also to be able to have a pro contest for the
BB women) by inviting top quality physiques from abroad (and you looked
spectalular at your last contest).
You can find out more about me at my site and also see some pics from last
year's contest.
www.lokrantzconsulting.com
The site for the Grand Prix: www.exhale.us. Then click exhale weekend.
Info in Swedish though... I think there is little info somewhere in
English too.

March 4th, I received this email regarding my concerns that this was indeed a pro-qualifier...
Hi Robin,
I have talked to Roger Skoglund about this before and the winner will get
a pro card no matter where she comes from (last years contest, people from
Sweden, Denmark and Norway were competing). So people from America can
also compete in the show and compete for the pro card. It is a Grand Prix
and not a national contest.
C-M

A couple of weeks latter, he contacted me to let me know that he could not guarantee Jim Manion would approve an American for her pro-card from that contest. He seemed fairly certain that the 2006 contest would have full approval. His email address is: webmaster@lokrantzconsulting.com

There is also a thread on this topic on Muscle Mayhem...
http://www.chadnicholls.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25868

[rpflex]

Tre, if you don't know Carl-Markus already, you might want to contact him. It sounds like you two have similar interests and goals....

[Tre]

Tre, if you don't know Carl-Markus already, you might want to contact him. It sounds like you two have similar interests and goals....

Hi Robin,

Thanks for the note on Carl. He and I are actually good friends and have been talking about two possible bodybuilding-related projects for the European audience.

He and the NOGP promoters put in a nice lobbying effort 1) to make this event an IFBB pro qualifier and 2) to get Jim Manion and Mark Smishek to agree that American and Canadian women could also compete for that pro card.

They achieved 1, but unfortunately, were not able to get approval on 2. That was disappointing, but hey, at least they gave it an honest effort.

I attended the show in Sweden back in April and had a great time there. There were only 5 competitors, but the quality was excellent. I was disappointed to learn this weekend, however, that Sissel was NOT awarded her pro card after all. She stated here that the Swedish IFBB affiliate will not coordinate her pro application because she's Norwegian. That's just plain wrong, and I'm not so quick to let this one go without an explanation.

It may take some time, but I'll get to the bottom of that. Otherwsie, it was a really fun event and I hope to see it expand and open up to U.S./Canadian participants in the future...assuming, of course, that the IFBB will keep sanctioning women's bodybuilding.