When Pigs Fly (read text below)

[Echo]

http://www.musclewomen.net/Amanda/Pics/Amanda2803.jpg

Amanda Dunbar


The Telephone Call I Would Like To Hear:

Jim Manion (NPC Life President) to Peter McGough (FLEX Magazine):

Mr. Manion: Hey Peter! I want to thank you for all the great magazine exposure you have been giving to our 2005 USA champion, Phil Heath.

Mr. McGough: No problem, Jim. Phil's a great young man and we have been happy to have him work with us.

Mr. Manion: Peter, are you familiar with our 2005 USA Women's champion, Amanda Dunbar?

Mr. McGough: Very vaguely. I think I know who she is.

Mr. Manion: Well, that's the problem and that's why I called today. Amanda is an attractive young lady and she really represents the trend that we are trying to establish with our Women's bodybuilding program. Our organization really needs your help to promote our efforts with our Women's program. Amanda is a sweetheart. She takes a great picture and she doesn't talk like a trucker, like some of them do, you know what I mean?

Mr. McGough: I'm listening, Jim.

Mr. Manion: So, I would like to ask you on behalf of our organization.....in fact, I would consider it a personal favor to me if you could provide some magazine exposure for our Women's bodybuilding champ. Can I count on you for your help?

Mr. McGough: Absolutely, Jim. I will bring it up during our next layout meeting. Can you get me some pictures of Amanda so that we have a starting point to work from?

Mr. Manion: I will have someone from the office e-mail some to you when I get off the phone. Thanks so much for your help Peter.

[Echo]

My Dear Forum Friends:

As you have all correctly pointed out, female bodybuilders are no longer featured in popular bodybuilding magazines today. I, just like you, would like to see our female athletes return to their rightful place in the pages of these magazines. This blatant ommision and disregard for our athletes has gone on far too long.

Some of you, like "superfan" CBDetroit, have placed the blame squarely at the feet of the magazines and their editors. My friends, that is not where the problem exists. In actuality, female bodybuilders could return to the pages of these magazines as soon as the next production cycle. Yes, that's right.

So what's the problem, you ask? The problem is that the corporate governance of the NPC/IFBB, the organization that accepts membership and Pro-card fees from female bodybuilders, does not want to promote female bodybuilders for commercial endorsement opportunities, nor do they, in any way, encourage the bodybuilding magazines to feature these athletes. This could all change in a heartbeat if one man in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania picked up the phone and made some telephone calls on behalf of these more than deserving athletes. Sadly, he is unwilling to do this.

Consider these facts: The man in Pittsburgh, who now controls most of organized bodybuilding in the USA, has a son who operates a well known "talent agency," as well as some subsidiary companies whose sole purpose is to represent female NPC/IFBB athletes in order to negotiate and obtain promotional contracts on their behalf, to photograph them, to build websites for them, to plan contest and other event appearances for them, and to help get these athletes feature articles and photographs in bodybuilding magazines. Sounds good, doesn't it? There is just one problem, female bodybuilders are not allowed entry. Only fitness and figure athletes can become clients.

Need I say more, or have you already "figured" things out?

[jasons805]

But when you think about it mags are dead anyway, unless you want the training info(easily found online). I can't think of the last time I bought a mag at a store of any kind. I do get Time and EW(subscriptions)that is about it. I think more people see bbing and fitness athletes online more so than in mags anyway. We need a top 25 traffic rank of individual sites bbing and fitness to see who comes out on top. I don't think being on a mag cover at least a fitness/bbing one really means that much these days. I could careless to read them anyway. To many of their own supps being sold in them anyway. It's one big ad and they put articles and pics on the blank pages. I don't feel like the net is a second class citizen to mags now anyway.

[Echo]

So what's the problem, you ask? The problem is that the corporate governance of the NPC/IFBB, the organization that accepts membership and Pro-card fees from female bodybuilders, does not want to promote female bodybuilders......


To Jason805:

It is not a magazine versus internet issue, Jason. Consider the question from the business angle of this "sport." The financial risk of running bodybuilding competitions is not born by the NPC/IFBB. This corporate governing entity is only a receiver of money. Check out the NPC's tax disclosure (IRS Form 940-V) and you will understand this.

The financial risk of running bodybuilding competitions is born by promoters who pay NPC/IFBB a sanction fee. The "sanction fee" has no value if the national organization can not help provide support or promotional exposure of participant athletes so that the event can draw more athletes and spectators,(i.e. money) Therefore, magazine exposure and other media exposure is still essential from the promotor perspective.

Think of it this way. Let's say you wanted to open a restaurant franchise in your town and you only had two choices of franchises. The first is MacDonald's and the other is "Joe's Burgers." Which franchise would you select? The franchise fee for MacDonalds is $350K verses $10K for "Joe's." Which would you pick?

If it was my choice, I would opt for MacDonald's and cough up the $350K because MacDonald's advertising and promotional campaign is running 24/7 around the world, so I can expect customers to come into my restaurant when I open my doors. That doesn't exist with "Joe's Burgers."

When it comes to female bodybuilding, the NPC/IFBB takes in money and gives back nothing. And the fact that the NPC enjoys an exemption from federal income taxes makes this whole situation even more laughable.

[Harry The Hat]

Just a couple of comments. The internet is the main outlet for FBBing, but its piecemeal, haphazard nature makes potential sponsors nervous. For example, a print magazine comes out with fresh content every month and has an audited sales record. It has a rate card for advertisers that allows them to see costs and packages for the advertisers that gives them discounts for taking out a series of ads with the magazine. With their long histories, the expected sales generated by advertising is well-known.

Compare this with even the best of the FBB internet sites. These are all sites run by enthusiaistic supporters of the women's side of the sport, with resultant restrictions. To begin with, Gene, James, George, Tre etc, cannot be everywhere at once. That means that if they can't make a show, the female competitors become effectively invisible after the show. Also, internet photogs are not seen as 'legitimate' photographers by the feds. When was the last time an internet photographer had press accreditation and a good place to shoot from? Most of the shots you see are taken from the seat the photog has purchased. It all makes getting material from shows difficult. An internet site can show the number of hits etc - which can be impressive - but how many of these are for the 'front page' and how many are for forums? I'm guessing that the forums is most people's point of access.

Why am I concentrating on the advertisers/sponsors rather the editorial policy or the women themselves? Because it's the advertisers to a large extent that dictate policy. The percentage of the readership that actually wants to see FBBing for any magazine is relatively small, but the advertisers that see FBBs as being effective for supplement sales is smaller still. They'd much rather have a third-tier MBB talking about their products than the most highly regarded FBB. And make no mistake, most magazine articles are thinly-veiled advertorial for one suppplement range of another.

Sponsorship dictates the amount of shows, the prize money offered and therefore ultimately the amount of FBBs who stay in the sport. Getting the women back into the magazines is a big ask. I laid out how I thought it should be done in the Flex Swimsuit thread in the women's section at Mayhem and (although I'm not holding my breath) got a favorable response from Chris, the Creative Director at Flex in reply.

The gist of it is, Flex, M&F etc need to have a minimum presence in their editions each month. Not to devote acres of space - which neither their readerships or advertisers would tolerate - but to set a tone and direction for the sport and, more importantly, drive traffic onto a IFBB/NPC megasite which acts as an online magazine. Masses of regularly updated content, exclusive interviews, DVDs, etc would create the ability to have both a free section and a subscriber base. This in turn would attact on-line advertising. You'll notice that both Mayhem attracts a good deal of banner ads and that GetBig has been sponsored by Bodybuilding.com. The GetBig sponsorship is interesting, because it points out that not only is internet traffic constantly growing, on-line based sales and on-line businesses are constantly growing. The advertisers for an online FBB megasite are increasingly likely to come from online businesses.

With an IFBB/NPC megasite generating income via subscriptions, advertising, sales of DVDs, photo sets, travel pacakages to shows etc, the profits can then be reinvested in new shows, better prize money and further promotion.

Getting the women back into the magazines is a tough sell. It requires that the editorial boards feature the women mainly out of altriusm and a sense of doing what is right. Personally, I'm advocating a minimum presence of about 10 pages in each magazine, with the majority of the coverage being done on-line. The magazines are still important, even though they're declining in influence. The IFBB and NPC talk about how they want to grow FBBing, but then don't feature them in their magazines. It's time for them to match their words with some action and investment.

[CalJoe]

It's a little tough to completely blame the magazines for not giving anything approaching equal coverage of women's bodybuilding in their respective publications. First of all they probably respond to the wishes of their readers, and let's face it, the overwhelming majority of the people that buy these rags have no interest in women's bodybuilding. Secondly, they will attract more advertisers as their circulation rate goes higher. You have to give the readers what they want to keep your circulation rate at optimal levels. So, I can understand the magazines' agenda, but I cannot understand the negativity associated with what little coverage the women get.

The other thing I don't understand is the lack of coverage of women's bodybuilding in the NPC Magazine. This is supposed to be the representative magazine of the sport/industry, and yet they conciously choose to omit women bodybuilders from their own publication. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't women bodybuilders pay the same membership dues as the male counterparts? Don't they pay the same as their figure/fitness counterparts. If so, then why the disparity in coverage?

Don't hold your breath waiting for Manion to make that phone call, because it's not going to happen. The only calls that are made are those that positively effect the bottom line.

[Echo]

The gist of it is, Flex, M&F etc need to have a minimum presence in their editions each month. Not to devote acres of space - which neither their readerships or advertisers would tolerate - but to set a tone and direction for the sport.......

Getting the women back into the magazines is a tough sell. It requires that the editorial boards feature the women mainly out of altriusm and a sense of doing what is right. Personally, I'm advocating a minimum presence of about 10 pages in each magazine.........

......The magazines are still important, even though they're declining in influence. The IFBB and NPC talk about how they want to grow FBBing, but then don't feature them in their magazines. It's time for them to match their words with some action and investment.

Harry The Hat:

In your post above I noticed that you expressed a view that I commonly hear from others, most notably Bob Chicherillo, that male bodybuilders "sell" more nutritional supplements because it is the men we see in supplement ads, not women. However, there is really no empirical evidence to suggest that the presence of a male bodybuilder on an ad is essential to sell that product.

Many supplement ads in bodybuilding magazines do not feature a celebrity bodybuilding spokesman and many of those products enjoy significant sales volume. Obviously, the decision to purchase a product involves perceived features and benefits on the part of the consumer. This can and, evidently, has been succesfully conveyed without a male bodybuilder spokesman.

Moreover, given the FDA's increasingly hostile attitude toward nutritional supplement companies and the industry's close association with bodybuilding is increasingly becoming a liability rather than a asset. Conversely, bodybulding has, for far too long, hitched its fortunes on the back of the nutritional supplement industry. But that is a discussion for another time.

In the meantime, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The Women should have some representation as opposed to none.

[Echo]

The other thing I don't understand is the lack of coverage of women's bodybuilding in the NPC Magazine. This is supposed to be the representative magazine of the sport/industry, and yet they conciously choose to omit women bodybuilders from their own publication. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't women bodybuilders pay the same membership dues as the male counterparts? Don't they pay the same as their figure/fitness counterparts. If so, then why the disparity in coverage?


At least the NPC is consistent in their policies with regard to female bodybuilders......they do little to nothing for them, except take their membership dues.

[Echo]

At the time of this post, this thread has been up for less than 24 hours and has been viewed 100 times with seven posts.

So far, not a single post has been made on this thread by a female bodybuilder. Does anyone care to lay odds as to when, or even if, a bonafide female bodybuilder will post an opinion on this subject?

If the ladies don't care, why should anyone else?

[Harry The Hat]

Echo, while I agree that the inability of FBBs to shift product is a received wisdom rather than a clinical case study, the disappearance of women from the pages of magazines is due in large part to The Grand Experiment of the 80s and early 90s, when Weider thought they could crack the mass market with Cory and Rachel. If you remember, those two women featured on just about every 2nd Weider magazine cover and they were featured prominently in Weider supplement advertising.

The Weiders made a colossal miscalculation - that the fitness boom of the time extended into women training for muscle. They believed that woman would see Cory and Rachel and would aspire to be like them. The truth was, they aspired to look like Jane Fonda, or at a push, Bo Derek. They wanted to be lean and trim. The Weiders might have had much greater success if they used C & R to front campaigns for aerobic equipment or thermogenic supplements.

When the sales that were meant to be the pay-off from their investment in Cory, Rachel and the other FBBs didn't materialize - well, never underestimate the ire of men who have seen an expected avalanche of money disappear. Lenda in particular (and all the FBBs who followed) effectively paid the price in terms of coverage because of the failed Grand Experiment.

Is Bob Chic (raving self-publicist and controversialist that he is) wrong about the current inability of the women to shift protein powders? For the mass market, he's probably right. The vast majority of sales have always been to impressionable young men. If a good guy and a credible spokesman, like Mark Dugdale for example, assures them that MuscleTech whey protein will put hairs on their chest and give them cannonball delts, they're likely to believe him.

It's not essential to have a MBB sell your product, but a popular one will. How many Nike Air sneakers would have been sold without Michael Jordan? There are thousands of young men who will buy protein if Jay Cutler says it works. If Yax says the same thing, it will always have less relevance to them. That's a fact of marketing life, which is why I've always advocated a different business model to the traditional 'bodybuilder + product endorsement = sales' one.

It's not a slam on the women - incidentally I think a supplement range specifically for women endorsed by someone like Lenda Murray could be successful - but it's an acceptance that female bodybuilding needs a different approach and fresh thinking. At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, female bodybuilding isn't male bodybuilding. The marketing strategies and sources of income need to be identified and exploited from places other than the usual suspects.

[Echo]

.
It's not a slam on the women - incidentally I think a supplement range specifically for women endorsed by someone like Lenda Murray could be successful - but it's an acceptance that female bodybuilding needs a different approach and fresh thinking. At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, female bodybuilding isn't male bodybuilding. The marketing strategies and sources of income need to be identified and exploited from places other than the usual suspects.

Exactly, Harry, and the NPC/IFBB governance has neither the inspiration nor the vision to identify and exploit such potential or emerging marketing opportunities. They are too entrenched in an old, self-serving operational model.

Thanks for your always thoughtful posts.

[Zennie]

But when you think about it mags are dead anyway, unless you want the training info(easily found online). I can't think of the last time I bought a mag at a store of any kind. I do get Time and EW(subscriptions)that is about it. I think more people see bbing and fitness athletes online more so than in mags anyway. We need a top 25 traffic rank of individual sites bbing and fitness to see who comes out on top. I don't think being on a mag cover at least a fitness/bbing one really means that much these days. I could careless to read them anyway. To many of their own supps being sold in them anyway. It's one big ad and they put articles and pics on the blank pages. I don't feel like the net is a second class citizen to mags now anyway.

Here, here! :cheers:

....I prefer to toast with wine, but...

[CoryC]

At the time of this post, this thread has been up for less than 24 hours and has been viewed 100 times with seven posts.

So far, not a single post has been made on this thread by a female bodybuilder. Does anyone care to lay odds as to when, or even if, a bonafide female bodybuilder will post an opinion on this subject?

If the ladies don't care, why should anyone else?

On this point you and I are in 100% agreeance Echo.

The bulk of any arguments that I make for FBB rely entierly on the competitors taking control of the industry and moving it forward themselves. The problem is, there's no onus for them to do so, and the 'mindset' is broken right now.


I don't mean this to be a slam on FBB. Despite the fact that my wife is a figure competitor, I'm a big fan of FBB and want to see them succeed on their own merits. But to do so is going to take a level of commitment that you don't find in the industry today. MOST of the time when a competitor does talk they tell those who are not FBB to "not worry about it" that "you're not competitors so it doesn't concern you". They are wrong of course, since its the FANS that drive any industry, and without the dollars and adulation of said fans there'd be no market. The idea that's blossemed of late that bodybuilding (be it Men's or Female) changes are best made by the "insiders" (read: competitors, magazines and supp companies) is a recipe for failure. Don't believe me? Look at the "Challenge Round" in Men's BB'ing. This was designed in house, with no fan input. They basically took what they thought the fans wanted to see and ran with it.

They are currently doing the same thing with FBB. Taking what they suppose is the fans mindset, and running with it despite protestations to the contrary. When they do address the fans protests, they write them off as isolated incidents, with little bearing on the fan base as a whole. This flies in the face of decreasing ticket sales to non-major IFBB events (the O and the Arnold, where the draw isn't the competition as much as the atmosphere) and decreasing profits in magazines.

One advantage the women DO have over the men is an increased potential marketing pool. There are far more products that females use than men that are marketable to the female fitness enthusiest.

The trick is getting some of the competitors to "take the step" and try to build the bridges that are necessary to start promoting said products.

I also agree with this:

Exactly, Harry, and the NPC/IFBB governance has neither the inspiration nor the vision to identify and exploit such potential or emerging marketing opportunities. They are too entrenched in an old, self-serving operational model.

Which is why I discount the magazines as having a major role in the future of FBB promotion. Sure, we would all like to see the females get increased column inches in the mainstream publications but, in abscence of a change in management, that day is becoming less and less likely to happen, in spite of the opinions of many on this board. (including mine BTW).

The future, whatever it may be, for FBB will be defined and grown on the Internet. The funny thing is that the women have the potential to outpace the men in this area already, because the infrastructure is alread in place to do so.

Look at the Jr. USA's as a prime example of that. Once the show was over, this site was among the first to produce any results. Fans of Men's bb'ing were clamoring for the results, but due to a procedural error and the prevailing thought of the NPC that the Internet doesn't have a place at the table, 99.99% of bodybuilding fans didn't know the results of the show until almost a week later.

The real travesty here is that there were two pros awarded cards, who didn't get the publicity they deserved, and won't get a write up in NPC News until almost a year after the fact. But on this site, the women were identified, pictures were posted, and kudos awarded despite the NPC/IFBB/AMI's refusal to realize the benefit of that.

The Mags are a dead medium (literally). By the time they report something its OLDs, not NEWs. The internet could change all of that in a heartbeat, and is already doing so in the distaff portion of the industry.

The marketing for that will be the next thing to follow, the only question remaining to be answered is:

"Who's going to lead the way?"

[George]

".....However, there is really no empirical evidence to suggest that the presence of a male bodybuilder on an ad is essential to sell that product. .....

If that were true then why are sup companies paying male athletes and why do 99 and 44/100% of those ads feature these big guys?...when if your statement were true...the mags would replace the MBB's with gerbils....

[Imystify]

The only calls that are made are those that positively effect the bottom line.
yeah, the bottom line of a not for profit organization. someone needs to call the feds, I mean if Enron and such can be blown apart, surely this sham can too.

[Echo]

".....However, there is really no empirical evidence to suggest that the presence of a male bodybuilder on an ad is essential to sell that product. .....

If that were true then why are sup companies paying male athletes and why do 99 and 44/100% of those ads feature these big guys?...when if your statement were true...the mags would replace the MBB's with gerbils....

Do you recall that Twin-Lab had filed for bankruptcy? They used males almost exclusively in their campaigns. Royal Numico bought Met-Rx and Rexall-Sundown, among others and had to turn around and sell off the companies they bought at a stunning multi-million dollar loss. Guess what? They used males almost exclusively in their marketing.

The nutritional supplement industry has been getting an ass-kicking that has nothing to do with who or what has been featured in ads. That is but one reason why I phrased my statement as I did.

[fbbhubby]

I think another reason the supplement companies feature men is that men make the bulk of the purchasing decisions for supplements, especially muscle building ones. Either the trainer, boyfriend, husband, some big guy at the gym who people ask for advice....it's usually a guy who determines which brand to purchase. Men will take advice from other men for muscle building supplements. A women pushing muscle powders is not perceived as credible by guys.

For thermogenics and other diet products, women could endorse those just as easy as guys............. if the target market was women. But the readership of the bodybuilding magazines is probably mostly guys.

So personally, I think bodybuilding magazine supplement endorsements are a dead end for fbb. There are other things to market that are a better fit for fbb.

[George]

But the readership of the bodybuilding magazines is probably mostly guys.

So personally, I think bodybuilding magazine supplement endorsements are a dead end for fbb. There are other things to market that are a better fit for fbb.

So the question is why don't more women buy/read bb mags?....or more precicely...why don't more FBB's buy them. I think the answer is obvious...why would any woman want to support/buy any magazine that doesn't feature women bodybuilders, or doesnt have anything even remotely related to them or articles they could identify with.. and hasn't had any of the above in several years? Let's face it, for the most part these mags are no more than advertisements...sprinkled with a few tidbits of info that could possibly be of interest to bbs...but I've heard it time and again....its the same old, rehashed, outdated, workout routine....or the same 2 or 3 "stars" and how they got that way by drinking shakes and taking powder....uhh....yeah...and if you believe that...I have a bridge for sale in the Mojave....

But I digress....the real issue is what products if any could fbbs hock?...clothing?,supplements?,equipment?,sex?.... .and if there are alternatives.....why are the mags not using them?...I have seen a few "models" and/or fitness/figure girl ads for thermos and weightloss stuff...other than that....the cupboard is empty :no pity: ....<<<<<for the mags...

[fbbhubby]

But I digress....the real issue is what products if any could fbbs hock?...clothing?,supplements?,equipment?,sex?.... .and if there are alternatives.....why are the mags not using them

Another question is how to get fbb's into the marketing approach of a product? Where would the idea of using a fbb to promote a product come from? An advertising agency for a product? The marketing dept or brand manager of that product? An advertising sales rep for a magazine trying to drum up business from that product?

[MoreMuscles]

Valerie Waugaman uses her figure physique and career (and figure is a form of bodybuilding) to promote her healthy restaurant business. She said in her recent interview on www.hardbodyradio.com that volume has been up at her restaurant since she started competing, etc. Since one of the endpoints of her business is to fulfill a societal need (better health, less obesity), her bodybuilding and her business have the potential to sell each other in a very mainstream market.
Just a thought....

[Harry The Hat]

I think that a major problem with using IFBB pro MBBs to pimp your protein is that, ironically, their very size makes them less-than-credible spokespeople for the product. For example, if guys like Ronnie and Gunter are topping 300lbs in the off-season, and competing in the 280's, who in hell is going to believe it's down to whey protein and snack bars?

Whether it's a man or a woman fronting a supplement company's ad campaign, the consumer has to be able to do two things: (a) say to themselves 'I want to look like that' and (b) say 'I believe that the product they're endorsing is integral to what they've achieved'. There are more aesthetic physiques among the IFBB men's pro ranks - Richard Jones for example - but they don't tend to do well against the mass-monsters in competition. Jones was promoted to death by Weider/AMI, competed once as a pro and appears to have dropped out for the time being.

We often talk about 'magazine sales decreasing'. BB magazine sales are decreasing, but fitness magazines/men's health magazine sales are actually growing. Why? Because for both advertisers and fans, there is much more credibility in reading the training and dietary regimen of someone whose physique doesn't look like a pharmaceutical pin cushion.

The women can get supplement/advertising deals, but it will always be advertising to their peers - other women who train for strength and/or size. Part of the solution in the future should be supplement ranges that are specifically developed for the female physiology.

[Echo]

I think that a major problem with using IFBB pro MBBs to pimp your protein is that......

The women can get supplement/advertising deals, but it will always be advertising to their peers - other women who train for strength and/or size. Part of the solution in the future should be supplement ranges that are specifically developed for the female physiology.

Harry:

In your posts you often reference the ubiquitous "protein powders" and on another thread you even proposed a "conspiracy theory" to explain that inequities experienced by female bodybuilders within the NPC/IFBB are due to an inability of women to "sell" protein.

As I have mentioned before, times have been getting tough in the supplement industry. The source costs for ingredients in protein powders, such as quality whey, has steadily escalated. As a result, the retail costs for standard size cannisters of some products has climbed into the $45+ range. Even at these prices, the profit margins are not the bonanza for manufacturers as they once were. Most importantly, less and less people are willing to pay these prices for protein on a habitual basis regardless of who is hawking them.

My industry contacts have lead me to believe that the highest profit per unit items have been the "fat-burners" and the pro-hormones. Women have used the fatburners and can effectively sell them. Unfortunately, the FDA is working to take these products off the shelves.

Regardless, our sport needs to look beyond the supplement industry for effective and profitable synergies to secure its future.

[Mike]

Beyond the supplement industry to where? So many women BBers say they have a "marketable look". What exactly does that mean? Marketable to whom? Who is the target audience? fbbhubby is right, most supplement purchasing decisions are by boyfriends and husbands. So who is your target market?

[Harry The Hat]

If you're referring to the 'Wayne & Jim In The Dark Mansion' conspiracy theory post on Mayhem, that was written with tongue firmly in cheek. I think the most evil tools of the administrators have been indifference and neglect. For 'protein powders', read supplements in general. I'll take your word on it that fat burners have the highest unit profit margin - but I'd be interested to know where the volume of sales still lies.

Most importantly to the discussion at hand is what are the demographics for the consumers? If women do indeed make up a sizeable part of the consumers - within bodybuilding and strength sports - then they are likely to respond well to endorsement by a female bodybuilder. My point is not that women can't sell supplements, but that it is the opinion of the powers that be that they can't. Rachel didn't. Cory didn't. Case, for them, effectively closed, 15 years of increasing numbers of people entering the female physique arena be damned.

If the administrators can't be convinced that FBBs have the ability to shift product, they in turn are not going to ask the sponsors in the first place. And because they can't see very far beyond an old boys' network of contacts, it will never occur to them that are options beyond the supplement industry.

[fbbhubby]

Beyond the supplement industry to where? So many women BBers say they have a "marketable look". What exactly does that mean? Marketable to whom? Who is the target audience? fbbhubby is right, most supplement purchasing decisions are by boyfriends and husbands. So who is your target market?

How about workout clothing? Women care much more than guys about the workout clothes they wear. Workout clothes that accentuate the good points and hide the weaknesses could sell if marketed by women strength and figure athletes. Russell, Nike, and others could be sponsors of women and events.
Workout gloves are another. Far more women than men wear them so they don't get "man hands". A female bodybuilder would be a perfect endorsement for that market.
In both of these markets, women make the purchasing decisions and men would be ineffective spokepersons.
There are tons of products and markets that haven't been exploited and audiences that are untapped.

[Echo]

.....There are tons of products and markets [for women] that haven't been exploited and audiences that are untapped.

I absolutely agree with you and you raised two excellent examples. I'll bet we could come up with even more.

[Echo]

When Bob Hoffmann, Joe Weider, and Dan Lurie made their initial forays into publishing there were no "demographic studies" to guide them and virtually no established "market" waiting with baited breath to receive them. In fact, what they were faced with was a widespread public perception that bodybuilders were narcissists, homosexuals....or both.

Armed with little more than a passion for bodybuilding, these publishers relentlessly promoted bodybuilders, bodybuilding, and the concept of a bodybuilding lifestyle. Their magazines also served a dual purpose. In addition to showcasing bodybuilding, the magazines served as bodybuilding sales catalogs for products that the publisher exclusively sold. And the sales wasn't limited to powders, these guys sold everything from home gym equipment to liver pills......all the things that they wanted you to believe was necessary to pursue bodybuilding/weightlifting and that lifestyle.

But times have changed. We now, desperately, need fearless visionaries and pioneers to provide a brighter future for our sport, but there are none....at least none in the current NPC/IFBB governance. At present, the leading publications in bodybuilding is owned and operated by the same company, American Media, that owns the National Inquirer. We now need to look at our sport like we are starting all over again.

The times have not just changed for us, they have changed for the related industries around us...and that affects us. Times have been tougher and more competitive in the nutritional supplement industry.

And if you didn't already know it, times have been tough in the gym business. The health club chain with the largest number of members in the USA is 24 Hour Fitness. Not too long ago they were on their way to implosion before they were saved by a large infusion of investor capital. Bally Fitness owns the Hammer Strength and LifeFitness gym equipment companies. They operate the most clubs in the USA. In the last quarter of 2005, they announced to shareholders a $640 million debt. They are now selling off and/or consolidating clubs. They, too, are looking for a merger or acquisition to escape their current problems.

In light of this not so rosy picture, who would have thought it would be women who are now saving the ass of regional bodybuilding promoters? For example, at this year's Contra Costa Bodybuilding Championships more than half of the total competitors in that large show were women competing in figure divisions.

The Contra Costa is no different than most regional contests now. Promoters pay lower sanction fees to the NPC for figure contests, and it is the friends/family members of these figure competitors who buy up a lot of the seats at the pre-judging and night shows. You do the math. Now you know why many promotors host an amateur figure contest along with an IFBB pro contest....because it is the only insurance they have for their event to make some money.

Strangely enough, the NPC/IFBB governance is not much more adept at "marketing" figure competitors, or guiding them to a solid financial future, than they were with the female bodybuilders. Oh, well.....

[fbbhubby]

Strangely enough, the NPC/IFBB governance is not much more adept at "marketing" figure competitors, or guiding them to a solid financial future, than they were with the female bodybuilders. Oh, well.....

Do you consider the job of the NPC to guide careers or market specific people?

I guess I look at the NPC just like the Miss America structure. Miss America has a system that puts on amateur pagents starting at the local level, then state, then national. They just put on the events and leave it to the competitors to manage their own career. Some women work harder and are better than others at making the exposure work to their advantage.

I don't want the NPC to pick and choose specific people to market...it makes it too political. They should just market and promote bodybuilding in general for all kinds of reasons. The bodybuilding lifestyle has so many positive things that it can do for people.

[Harry The Hat]

It's not the job of the IFBB or NPC to guide careers or market specific people. It is, however, their job to publicize the sport and to encourage sponsors into supporting the various female physique categories.

The problem is that the IFBB in particular is that it has a get out clause for just about everything. For individual shows? It's the promoter's job to look after sponsorship and advertising. For general media coverage? This is largely in the give of the AMI (perviously Weider of course) and other magazines - the IFBB do not involve themselves in PR efforts to push athletes or shows.

Of course, the whole thing is a disingenuous pile of poo. For most of the past 20 years, Ben could have quite easily talked to his own brother about getting more space in Flex, M&F etc., devoted to FBB, fitness and figure women. He didn't. Similarly with the Weider connections (the fact that so many supplement companies advertised in Weider magazines for example), they could have assisted in bringing sponsorship to various shows. And, with hundreds of millions of dollars income flowing into the Weider coffers, they could have been more liberal with Weider sponsorships themselves. They weren't.

At the very least, you'd have to say it's a clever set up. Having in large part created modern bodybuilding, Joe W has cashed in his empire to Pecker for multi-millions and Ben simply takes the sanctioning fees and enjoys the view.

[Harry The Hat]

When Bob Hoffmann, Joe Weider, and Dan Lurie made their initial forays into publishing there were no "demographic studies" to guide them and virtually no established "market" waiting with baited breath to receive them. In fact, what they were faced with was a widespread public perception that bodybuilders were narcissists, homosexuals....or both.
In point of fact, the basis for the Weider bodybuilding publishing empire was a stable of magazines for the gay male market. Titles such as Demi-God, American Manhood, Body Beautiful, and Adonis gave them the money and experience to move out of the gay market and into the mainstream. It's also said that much of the original officialdom of the IFBB (judges etc) were from the active gay community.

Ever since then, men's BBing has being playing down its gay roots, to appeal to the mainstream. However, I'm still willing to bet that any demographic studies of the Flex readership would show that they are a major part of the bodybuilding fanbase.

[Echo]

Do you consider the job of the NPC to guide careers or market specific people?

No I don't. But they have already been doing that, particularly in figure. You probably know who the life president of the NPC is. Have you ever heard of JMP Management? It is a "talent agency" operated by the Prez's son that exclusively manages figure and fitness competitors. Have you ever noticed that the top five in most major pro figure contests are predominantly J.M. clients?

...I guess I look at the NPC just like the Miss America structure. Miss America has a system that puts on amateur pagents starting at the local level, then state, then national. They just put on the events and leave it to the competitors to manage their own career. Some women work harder and are better than others at making the exposure work to their advantage.

I would respectfully suggest that you look at the NPC like it really is, which is definitely not what you have envisioned above. The NPC is structured as a non-profit, amateur sports organization that is exempt from federal income taxes. However, unlike other amateur sports organizations like the AAU, the NPC does not disclose organizational by-laws, "members" have no voting rights on anything, there is no official drug policy......should I go on?

In addition, the perpetual President of the NPC is also the Chairman of the IFBB Pro division, For all intents and purposes, the sport of bodybuilding in the USA, amateur and Pro, is controlled by one man......and it is not Joe Weider.

....I don't want the NPC to pick and choose specific people to market...it makes it too political. They should just market and promote bodybuilding in general for all kinds of reasons.

Again, I agree with you. But I would, again, remind you that the NPC/IFBB governance has already issued directives and has used various means that have strongly influenced, if not actually decided the winners of contests, as we have seen in the Women's divisions. There is definitely "politics." Specific people have already been chosen to be marketed, they're just not female bodybuilders.

[Echo]

In point of fact, the basis for the Weider bodybuilding publishing empire was a stable of magazines for the gay male market. Titles such as Demi-God, American Manhood, Body Beautiful, and Adonis gave them the money and experience to move out of the gay market and into the mainstream. It's also said that much of the original officialdom of the IFBB (judges etc) were from the active gay community.

Ever since then, men's BBing has being playing down its gay roots, to appeal to the mainstream. However, I'm still willing to bet that any demographic studies of the Flex readership would show that they are a major part of the bodybuilding fanbase.

At the risk of sounding like a "know it all," I have a bodybuilding magazine collection dating back to 1945, as well as out of print books and collectibles. I can state categorically that the Weider magazines were not primarily designed for the "gay male market." The gay "market" was still largely in the closet back then.

What Weider did do was hire "ghost-writers" who used specific trigger words/phrases designed to target male insecurities and provide images that promised to boost male self-esteem, and this was predominately aimed at heterosexuals. In addition, articles and photographic images were crafted for the purposes of sensationalizing the training of bodybuilders and to glamorize the bodybuilding lifestyle. For example, it was very common to find pictures of bodybuilders like Arnold, Frank Zane, or Dave Draper posing next to the very busty Betty Weider.

Having said that, it is absolutely true that bodybuilding has attracted the interest and involvement of gays. And there were very wealthy gays who were benefactors to bodybuilders. Jean-Paul Getty was a famous oil billionaire who had an interest in bodybuilding. And, yes, there were gay judges and promoters involved with NABBA in the United Kingdom, as well as the AAU and subsequently the NPC in the USA.

And it was the male bodybuilders who started the private posing "sessions" and it was the men who were first to venture into porn.

Harry, don't misunderstand me. I am not disputing the gay "factor' in bodybuilding. But I am disputing the notion that the Weider magazines were/are a predominantly a gay magazine or that bodybuilding is a predominantly gay activity. You might be interested to know, from a historical perspective, that it was Bob Hoffman (Weider's rival who published "Strength & Health" and "Muscular Development") who regularly hurled those accusations against Weider. At one point, Hoffman even challenged Weider to a public fist-fight.

.

[CalJoe]

No I don't. But they have already been doing that, particularly in figure. You probably know who the life president of the NPC is. Have you ever heard of JMP Management? It is a "talent agency" operated by the Prez's son that exclusively manages figure and fitness competitors. Have you ever noticed that the top five in most major pro figure contests are predominantly J.M. clients?



I would respectfully suggest that you look at the NPC like it really is, which is definitely not what you have envisioned above. The NPC is structured as a non-profit, amateur sports organization that is exempt from federal income taxes. However, unlike other amateur sports organizations like the AAU, the NPC does not disclose organizational by-laws, "members" have no voting rights on anything, there is no official drug policy......should I go on?

In addition, the perpetual President of the NPC is also the Chairman of the IFBB Pro division, For all intents and purposes, the sport of bodybuilding in the USA, amateur and Pro, is controlled by one man......and it is not Joe Weider.



Again, I agree with you. But I would, again, remind you that the NPC/IFBB governance has already issued directives and has used various means that have strongly influenced, if not actually decided the winners of contests, as we have seen in the Women's divisions. There is definitely "politics." Specific people have already been chosen to be marketed, they're just not female bodybuilders.
Great post Echo, I couldn't agree with you more. Besides the point you make about how coincidental it is that the JM clients are much more likely to finish in the top 5, how about the influence that MuscleTech has over the outcome of amateur as well as pro shows? Yes, the power is predominantly coming out of Pittsburgh, and we all know who it is, however, don't estimate the power of a certain number of other individuals. What about when Chris Cook was given a Weider contract 2 weeks before he won the 2004 Nationals? Was that a coincidence as well?

[fbbhubby]

Great post Echo, I couldn't agree with you more. Besides the point you make about how coincidental it is that the JM clients are much more likely to finish in the top 5, how about the influence that MuscleTech has over the outcome of amateur as well as pro shows? Yes, the power is predominantly coming out of Pittsburgh, and we all know who it is, however, don't estimate the power of a certain number of other individuals.

So why would any female bodybuilder want the NPC to get involved in marketing fbb just because they do it already with figure athletes? As ya'll pointed out, it becomes more political when there's a conflict of interest. I'm glad JMP Mgmt does nothing with female bodybuilders.

The NPC does nothing to stop any fbb from marketing herself. It's up to the individual, not the NPC, to market fbb.......IMO

[CalJoe]

So why would any female bodybuilder want the NPC to get involved in marketing fbb just because they do it already with figure athletes? As ya'll pointed out, it becomes more political when there's a conflict of interest. I'm glad JMP Mgmt does nothing with female bodybuilders.

The NPC does nothing to stop any fbb from marketing herself. It's up to the individual, not the NPC, to market fbb.......IMO
I agree in part with what you're saying. I think where the confusion might be popping up is in seperating "marketing" from "promoting". You're right, the individual should be trying to "market" themselves, however, the NPC chooses to promote men's bb, women's figure, and women's fitness, while not particularly paying attention to any form of women's bodybuilding promotion other than to advertise upcoming women's bb shows that might be part of a larger event i.e. the Olympia. Things may be starting to turn the corner a little but the promotion of women's bb lags significantly behind men's bb, women's figure and women's fitness.

[Echo]

So why would any female bodybuilder want the NPC to get involved in marketing fbb just because they do it already with figure athletes? As ya'll pointed out, it becomes more political when there's a conflict of interest. I'm glad JMP Mgmt does nothing with female bodybuilders.

The NPC does nothing to stop any fbb from marketing herself. It's up to the individual, not the NPC, to market fbb.......IMO

First of all, I am not taking a position against your views, not at all. Let's just look at the overall picture. The NPC/IFBB operation is essentially one in the same. Certain directives were issued by the NPC/IFBB in 2005 that played a hand in the outcome of certain important Women's bodybuilding contests. If traditional bodybuilding judging criteria and/or existing standards of contest preparation remained we would have had different overall winners than we saw last year.

After engineering the conditions to cause these desired (by NPC/IFBB)outcomes, the NPC/IFBB assisted the Men's and Figure winners in obtaining exposure and financial opportunities, but did nothing to help launch our Women's bodybuilding champs. Just a simple phone call on behalf of the Women's division champs would have been nice. Wouldn't you think?

[Harry The Hat]

The NPC does nothing to stop any fbb from marketing herself. It's up to the individual, not the NPC, to market fbb.......IMO
This is true up to a point. If a sport is not promoted generically, it will have fewer fans. It will also have less excitement, exposure and recognition of the individual athletes. If you start from a low fanbase (however loyal), then the athlete's efforts to market themselves are already handicapped. Effectively, each individual athlete is fighting for a share of a diminished market.

The efforts of the federation determine how big the pie is, the athlete's efforts determine how big a slice of it they get.

[CalJoe]

This is true up to a point. If a sport is not promoted generically, it will have fewer fans. It will also have less excitement, exposure and recognition of the individual athletes. If you start from a low fanbase (however loyal), then the athlete's efforts to market themselves are already handicapped. Effectively, each individual athlete is fighting for a share of a diminished market.

The efforts of the federation determine how big the pie is, the athlete's efforts determine how big a slice of it they get.
Excellent point Harry. One's marketing efforts would certainly be undermined without some kind of promotion coming from the organization(s) that run the sport.